what caused this? pics
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
From: central ky
what caused this? pics So to start off. I bought this car with the ms3 cam already installed so there are quite a few unknowns on what was upgraded and what wasnt. i found texas speed pushrods 7.4's and dual springs on the 853 heads. and i also found a oil pump labeled m245 on the back, assuming thats a melling high pressure pump?
But anyways the car ran fine until one day I thought I noticed a tick, but barely and then it went away, drove the car about 20 miles farther, ran fine and i drove it easy, I shut the car off then when I got back in it and started it, there was no oil pressure. So I had the car towed to my garage where I pulled the oil drain plug and found metal pieces on the magnet... So I pulled the motor, tore it down and found most of my lifters had scarring, and one that had completly failed. I also noticed on one of my pistons it had a small indention on the top as if it had smacked a valve... so my question is can anyone give me a idea why this happened? I also included a pic of what I got out of the oil pan
But anyways the car ran fine until one day I thought I noticed a tick, but barely and then it went away, drove the car about 20 miles farther, ran fine and i drove it easy, I shut the car off then when I got back in it and started it, there was no oil pressure. So I had the car towed to my garage where I pulled the oil drain plug and found metal pieces on the magnet... So I pulled the motor, tore it down and found most of my lifters had scarring, and one that had completly failed. I also noticed on one of my pistons it had a small indention on the top as if it had smacked a valve... so my question is can anyone give me a idea why this happened? I also included a pic of what I got out of the oil pan
what length are the pushrods you removed? there are a LOT of cams that are made to stick with the stock length pushrods, which are 7.400 If the MS3 cam is a small base circle cam, then it would require longer pushrods. I have not had that particular camshaft so I cant say what it takes. But the dent in your piston is definitely a valve smacking a piston. Since you have it torn apart, have the heads checked and redone by a reputable machine shop. Be sure to tell them EXACTLY which cylinder had the dented piston so that they know which valve may have an oiling issue or be stuck. I am not saying the valve seized in the head or jammed, but something caused that.
I would replace the camshaft with a new one and double check the length of pushrod required for that cam either from the vendor or the manufacturer.
Also, check the valve springs. If one has broken, it could have shoved the valve TOO FAR down and there not be enough spring pressure to pull it out of the pistons way.
These are just suggestions. May seem like overkill, but better safe than sorry with the money it will take to get it lined back out again.
The M245 oil pump is STANDARD volume, not high volume. And the part number is M295. Probably looks like a 4, but its a 9.
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I would replace the camshaft with a new one and double check the length of pushrod required for that cam either from the vendor or the manufacturer.
Also, check the valve springs. If one has broken, it could have shoved the valve TOO FAR down and there not be enough spring pressure to pull it out of the pistons way.
These are just suggestions. May seem like overkill, but better safe than sorry with the money it will take to get it lined back out again.
The M245 oil pump is STANDARD volume, not high volume. And the part number is M295. Probably looks like a 4, but its a 9.
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Last edited by KCS; Aug 1, 2017 at 07:50 AM. Reason: Non-Sponsor Link Removed
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
From: central ky
well I already plan to replace the heads with better flowing ones anyway, and the cam cant be saved with the damage the lifters done so I will be replacing that too. the pushrods I pulled out were 7.400.
I just dont know what made that lifter fail like that and most the other lifters rollers were scratched up, eating the cam lobes.
and yeah your right about the m295
I just dont know what made that lifter fail like that and most the other lifters rollers were scratched up, eating the cam lobes.
and yeah your right about the m295
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If I can ask a question kind of related to this, what is the max lift that stock rocker arms can handle and not have problems? A friend of mine is running a .625/.625 cam using stock rocker arms with comp trunion upgrades. He came home from the track with 2 of the rocker arm bolts loose and rockers cocked off to the side. It is a new engine build and he does not want the money to go to waste, so what are our options here?
NA99T/A, I am not trying to hijack, but hopefully the responses will help both of us with preventing stuff like from happening again... Both on your end for the lifter issue and our end for the rocker arm issue.. Which I fear are going to be related.....
NA99T/A, I am not trying to hijack, but hopefully the responses will help both of us with preventing stuff like from happening again... Both on your end for the lifter issue and our end for the rocker arm issue.. Which I fear are going to be related.....
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If I can ask a question kind of related to this, what is the max lift that stock rocker arms can handle and not have problems? A friend of mine is running a .625/.625 cam using stock rocker arms with comp trunion upgrades. He came home from the track with 2 of the rocker arm bolts loose and rockers cocked off to the side. It is a new engine build and he does not want the money to go to waste, so what are our options here?
NA99T/A, I am not trying to hijack, but hopefully the responses will help both of us with preventing stuff like from happening again... Both on your end for the lifter issue and our end for the rocker arm issue.. Which I fear are going to be related.....
NA99T/A, I am not trying to hijack, but hopefully the responses will help both of us with preventing stuff like from happening again... Both on your end for the lifter issue and our end for the rocker arm issue.. Which I fear are going to be related.....
I have several customers who run .650"ish lift with our springs and stock rockers with no issues.
It's not that it won't work, it just doesn't work well 100% of the time...
I've seen a valve tip get trashed on a stock LS6 cam because the guy didn't change his oil.
To think that you can run .650" lift with stock rockers and never have a issue just isn't reality.
Thanks for the update Matt, please post pics of the rocker scroll if you get a chance.
It's not that it won't work, it just doesn't work well 100% of the time...
I've seen a valve tip get trashed on a stock LS6 cam because the guy didn't change his oil.
To think that you can run .650" lift with stock rockers and never have a issue just isn't reality.
Thanks for the update Matt, please post pics of the rocker scroll if you get a chance.
Valve train float. If it has 5/16" pushrods with high RPM, pushrod flex will cause valve bounce and an out of control valve train. I still can't believe many are still using the 5/16" pushrods when a lot of money is spent on parts and the pushrods are simply overlooked. Unfortunately, unless you do some testing it is damage that will show up from the flexing. Crane did a study on this several years back and changed all their cam kits and rockers kits so larger OD pushrods were included. In my testing, I found that the 3/8" double taper pushrods I have installed made a difference starting at 5,800 RPM, which is a low RPM compared to what some are revving to with the flimsy 5/16" pushrods.
Here is a write-up that Crane Cams did several years back:
Crane has always taken pride in trying to produce only top-quality camshafts and valve-train components. One problem that occurs however, is that we never know exactly how the products are going to be used. When you think of the number of mathematical permutations about all of the combinations of cam profiles, valve springs, cylinder heads, pushrod lengths, intake and exhaust systems; you immediately realize that no manufacturer could ever test for everything. It is even impossible to test for 5% of the total possibilities. So we do the best we can!
Much of our product development time on roller lifters, rocker arms and valve springs is spent on durability testing with different combinations of related components. One inescapable fact has emerged from several years of testing: it is impossible to have a pushrod that is too stiff! Pushrod flex is a major cause of roller lifter failure, early valve spring load loss and excessive valve seat wear.
Consider the pushrod as if it were a pole-vaulters pole. When the lifter first starts to open the valve (especially at higher engine speeds against stiff valve springs and/or high residual cylinder pressure), the pushrod bends and then snaps back. The “snap-back” can send the rocker/valve spring assembly on an uncontrolled journey that causes “valve-train separation” (lash between lifter and pushrod, pushrod and rocker and rocker and valve).
When this separation is finally eliminated by the valve spring, the lifter can slam violently against the cam lobe and the valve can slam violently against its seat. If this action persists, lifter axle and wheel failure can result. Additionally, excessive valve seat wear and valve damage can occur, as well as accelerated valve spring load loss; not to mention camshaft lobe failure!
“Valve-float” that is automatically attributed to the valve spring design is frequently the cause of excessive “springiness” in the pushrod. This is especially true on long pushrod applications.
For instance, lifter failure and valve seat erosion on the exhaust (but not the intake) of a Big Block Chevrolet might be attributed to bad components or the wrong valve spring; however the longer exhaust pushrod just might be the real culprit. Almost every time that we have increased the stiffness of the pushrod, benefits have been observed. This has been true even when the pushrod increased in weight.
This happens because the lever advantage of the spring working through the rocker ratio means that weight on the pushrod side of the rocker fulcrum is not nearly as critical as weight on the valve side.
The only occasion where we saw a power loss was when the pushrods that we were using gave us “symmetrical lofting” of the valve. This “controlled” lofting actually added area under the lift curve. When we replaced the pushrods with stiffer designs, the “controlled loft” (and extra area under the curve) was lost and power decreased.
Be advised, this is a rare occurrence and “controlled, symmetrical lofting” usually only occurs in a relatively narrow RPM range. Without availability of a Spintron, dyno, and other diagnostic equipment, it would be very dangerous to count on “controlled lofting” when engineering a valvetrain!
The point of this presentation is that if you are having valve train issues: reliability, RPM capability, power output, broken parts, etc., look at the stiffness of the pushrod that you are using. By their very design, straight pushrods have their own “critical frequencies” that can aggravate other frequency issues in the valve train.
When possible, we recommend the use of “double-taper” pushrods. The “double-taper” design almost necessitates the use of shaft-mounted rockers, but they really minimize pushrod problems.
Pushrods seem very straightforward and uncomplicated, but don’t let their appearance fool you. They are among the most notorious gremlins that live in our engines and drive us nuts!!!
Here is a write-up that Crane Cams did several years back:
Crane has always taken pride in trying to produce only top-quality camshafts and valve-train components. One problem that occurs however, is that we never know exactly how the products are going to be used. When you think of the number of mathematical permutations about all of the combinations of cam profiles, valve springs, cylinder heads, pushrod lengths, intake and exhaust systems; you immediately realize that no manufacturer could ever test for everything. It is even impossible to test for 5% of the total possibilities. So we do the best we can!
Much of our product development time on roller lifters, rocker arms and valve springs is spent on durability testing with different combinations of related components. One inescapable fact has emerged from several years of testing: it is impossible to have a pushrod that is too stiff! Pushrod flex is a major cause of roller lifter failure, early valve spring load loss and excessive valve seat wear.
Consider the pushrod as if it were a pole-vaulters pole. When the lifter first starts to open the valve (especially at higher engine speeds against stiff valve springs and/or high residual cylinder pressure), the pushrod bends and then snaps back. The “snap-back” can send the rocker/valve spring assembly on an uncontrolled journey that causes “valve-train separation” (lash between lifter and pushrod, pushrod and rocker and rocker and valve).
When this separation is finally eliminated by the valve spring, the lifter can slam violently against the cam lobe and the valve can slam violently against its seat. If this action persists, lifter axle and wheel failure can result. Additionally, excessive valve seat wear and valve damage can occur, as well as accelerated valve spring load loss; not to mention camshaft lobe failure!
“Valve-float” that is automatically attributed to the valve spring design is frequently the cause of excessive “springiness” in the pushrod. This is especially true on long pushrod applications.
For instance, lifter failure and valve seat erosion on the exhaust (but not the intake) of a Big Block Chevrolet might be attributed to bad components or the wrong valve spring; however the longer exhaust pushrod just might be the real culprit. Almost every time that we have increased the stiffness of the pushrod, benefits have been observed. This has been true even when the pushrod increased in weight.
This happens because the lever advantage of the spring working through the rocker ratio means that weight on the pushrod side of the rocker fulcrum is not nearly as critical as weight on the valve side.
The only occasion where we saw a power loss was when the pushrods that we were using gave us “symmetrical lofting” of the valve. This “controlled” lofting actually added area under the lift curve. When we replaced the pushrods with stiffer designs, the “controlled loft” (and extra area under the curve) was lost and power decreased.
Be advised, this is a rare occurrence and “controlled, symmetrical lofting” usually only occurs in a relatively narrow RPM range. Without availability of a Spintron, dyno, and other diagnostic equipment, it would be very dangerous to count on “controlled lofting” when engineering a valvetrain!
The point of this presentation is that if you are having valve train issues: reliability, RPM capability, power output, broken parts, etc., look at the stiffness of the pushrod that you are using. By their very design, straight pushrods have their own “critical frequencies” that can aggravate other frequency issues in the valve train.
When possible, we recommend the use of “double-taper” pushrods. The “double-taper” design almost necessitates the use of shaft-mounted rockers, but they really minimize pushrod problems.
Pushrods seem very straightforward and uncomplicated, but don’t let their appearance fool you. They are among the most notorious gremlins that live in our engines and drive us nuts!!!
That's why I upgrade the trunions, the pushrods, and install new ls7 lifters with new lifter trays.
I have to admit though, I normally do not go with a very big lift for a cam because my budget (and my impatience, sometimes) prevents buying a custom grind cam.
I have to admit though, I normally do not go with a very big lift for a cam because my budget (and my impatience, sometimes) prevents buying a custom grind cam.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
They start to scrub sideways on the valve tip around 630. You find most cams are 625 or under on lift.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,151
Likes: 63
From: Saskatchewan, Canada - where arguing "DA" is for the slow and weak...
Lifter Roller Bearing Hi, I have a few question for the OP.
What did the OTHER lifter's inspection state when their rollers were felt ?
What was the bad lifter's plunger condition ?
My observation is that TOO much cam noise pressure (max spring lift) can cause the lifters to "bleed down" over 6000+ RPM which results is Valve Lash.
Lance
What did the OTHER lifter's inspection state when their rollers were felt ?
What was the bad lifter's plunger condition ?
My observation is that TOO much cam noise pressure (max spring lift) can cause the lifters to "bleed down" over 6000+ RPM which results is Valve Lash.
Lance
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
That wasnt an argument. I dont know if he has lsl lobes or not. Just an observation. If he has lsl lobes then its a coincidence.
I have no idea how anyone else would design nor factors included but i believe cyl head flow and port stall is looked at before scrub is. I could be wrong though.
Futral has a few as well and i believe Vengeance does also, although its a bit harder to find out which ones.
Lingenfelter uses quite a few higher lift cams/lobes even on smaller cams like their gt11 which has .631/.644.
They dont recommend roller rockers in their description. They say you can put in any ls1,6 etc engine and only thing needed is spring upgrade.
Most companies "torquer" cams will have alot more lift, normally on the intake.
Quite a few of tsp's new cams and lobes have more lift like their new ms4 and some have less.
I have no idea how anyone else would design nor factors included but i believe cyl head flow and port stall is looked at before scrub is. I could be wrong though.
Futral has a few as well and i believe Vengeance does also, although its a bit harder to find out which ones.
Lingenfelter uses quite a few higher lift cams/lobes even on smaller cams like their gt11 which has .631/.644.
They dont recommend roller rockers in their description. They say you can put in any ls1,6 etc engine and only thing needed is spring upgrade.
Most companies "torquer" cams will have alot more lift, normally on the intake.
Quite a few of tsp's new cams and lobes have more lift like their new ms4 and some have less.
TECH Junkie
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 3,052
Likes: 716
From: Poplarville, MS
I had a lifter break like that in my stock 3.2 V6 Oldsmobile. I don’t know what the cause was, this was a stock engine that had never been opened. Perhaps some contaminate in the oil jammed up the needle bearings and busted the roller. I replaced the cam and lifters and put another 150k on it with no other lifter problems.
Was the lifter that broke stuck the in lifter bore? If so that could be the cause of the bent valve.
Was the lifter that broke stuck the in lifter bore? If so that could be the cause of the bent valve.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
From: central ky
Hi, I have a few question for the OP.
What did the OTHER lifter's inspection state when their rollers were felt ?
What was the bad lifter's plunger condition ?
My observation is that TOO much cam noise pressure (max spring lift) can cause the lifters to "bleed down" over 6000+ RPM which results is Valve Lash.
Lance
What did the OTHER lifter's inspection state when their rollers were felt ?
What was the bad lifter's plunger condition ?
My observation is that TOO much cam noise pressure (max spring lift) can cause the lifters to "bleed down" over 6000+ RPM which results is Valve Lash.
Lance
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
From: central ky
I had a lifter break like that in my stock 3.2 V6 Oldsmobile. I don’t know what the cause was, this was a stock engine that had never been opened. Perhaps some contaminate in the oil jammed up the needle bearings and busted the roller. I replaced the cam and lifters and put another 150k on it with no other lifter problems.
Was the lifter that broke stuck the in lifter bore? If so that could be the cause of the bent valve.
Was the lifter that broke stuck the in lifter bore? If so that could be the cause of the bent valve.