Hydrualic Roller VS. LLR VS. Traditional Solid Roller
Originally Posted by rednari2
Other than saving the cost of adjustable rockers, whats the purpose for a set lash valve train that you have to putz around with shims to set. Some have stated the system is quieter. Standard setting for LS1 motors is 22 EXH and 20 on the INT. If this is too noisy for you, then tight the lash.
You can get - within reason - different thickness lash caps. So, you measure your pushrods with lashcaps to get it as close as you can. Err on the long side - but barely - on pr length. The shims were purchased from cam motion as a set. Thicknesses from 001 inch to 025 inch. They're just round, flat shims with ~8mm holes. They conform to the shape of the trunion. I can not provide pics because I am not home or I would.
Nice explanation here!
Exactly! I run mine exactly zero lash cold, so it's 010 hot. If I have to err on one side or the other of zero, i will actually preload the valve 001.
.020 lash makes sense on an iron block, but you will grow lash on an aluminum block anyway, and the hotter it gets the more lash you gain.
.020 lash makes sense on an iron block, but you will grow lash on an aluminum block anyway, and the hotter it gets the more lash you gain.
Thanks! I'd love to take credit for it, but I copied this guy:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...cker-arms.html
It's a pretty detailed how-to for what I did. I used this method with YT non-adjustable rockers also on my 346. i actually prefer it to using adjustable rockers. It has a bit higher PITA factor on the set up side, BUT you never need to adjust it, because there is nothing to come loose. Shims are reliable
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...cker-arms.html
It's a pretty detailed how-to for what I did. I used this method with YT non-adjustable rockers also on my 346. i actually prefer it to using adjustable rockers. It has a bit higher PITA factor on the set up side, BUT you never need to adjust it, because there is nothing to come loose. Shims are reliable
@00- thanks!!!
@hammer - judging by your results, looks like a great approach.
@speed - yes, you said better what I meant. I thought you'd lose more lash than 002 on an iron block, but I did know iron would go the other way - losing vs gaining lash from thermal expansion.
@hammer - judging by your results, looks like a great approach.
@speed - yes, you said better what I meant. I thought you'd lose more lash than 002 on an iron block, but I did know iron would go the other way - losing vs gaining lash from thermal expansion.
@00- thanks!!!
@hammer - judging by your results, looks like a great approach.
@speed - yes, you said better what I meant. I thought you'd lose more lash than 002 on an iron block, but I did know iron would go the other way - losing vs gaining lash from thermal expansion.
@hammer - judging by your results, looks like a great approach.
@speed - yes, you said better what I meant. I thought you'd lose more lash than 002 on an iron block, but I did know iron would go the other way - losing vs gaining lash from thermal expansion.
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Let me get this straight. On a Gen 1, the lash is set 11, 9 and clatters when cold. It tightens up when warm and quiets down.
Are you saying the opposite occurs with aluminum? That the lash is set 0-3 cold and opens to 12-10 when hot?? Or expands equally so that it remains 0-3 when hot?
This is getting better. I have to wrap my head around this one!
Are you saying the opposite occurs with aluminum? That the lash is set 0-3 cold and opens to 12-10 when hot?? Or expands equally so that it remains 0-3 when hot?
This is getting better. I have to wrap my head around this one!
Last edited by rednari2; Apr 20, 2018 at 06:31 PM.
Let me get this straight. On a Gen 1, the lash is set 11, 9 and clatters when cold. It tightens up when warm and quiets down.
Are you saying the opposite occurs with aluminum? That the lash is set 0-3 cold and opens to 12-10 when hot?? Or expands equally so that it remains 0-3 when hot?
This is getting better. I have to wrap my head around this one!
Are you saying the opposite occurs with aluminum? That the lash is set 0-3 cold and opens to 12-10 when hot?? Or expands equally so that it remains 0-3 when hot?
This is getting better. I have to wrap my head around this one!
Lash Caps = Valve Lash Hi ALL, MANY of the engines I work with USE Lash Caps to set the Valve Lash.
THUS NO SHIMS REQUIRED ! (No-NON OEM Rockers either)
My FIRST Road Race Car was a Formula V, a VW engine powered car.
That engine had adjustable rockers with MY setting of ZERO lash when COLD.
Thus again, GOOD tech from Jake ! ("0" lash)
The 496 "question" OR my method for the >001" :
I install the Lash Cap on a valve, then clamp it on my Souix Grinder Tip Vice, then a "kiss" of the stone.
Lance
THUS NO SHIMS REQUIRED ! (No-NON OEM Rockers either)
My FIRST Road Race Car was a Formula V, a VW engine powered car.
That engine had adjustable rockers with MY setting of ZERO lash when COLD.
Thus again, GOOD tech from Jake ! ("0" lash)
The 496 "question" OR my method for the >001" :
I install the Lash Cap on a valve, then clamp it on my Souix Grinder Tip Vice, then a "kiss" of the stone.
Lance
Ok. For an iron headed Gen 1 since the block and the valve train are both iron, the 11. 9 gap closes up from from block and head expansion.
But, you suggest 0-3 on an all aluminum motor because it will loosen to about 10 when hot. This obviously mean that the aluminum block and heads expand at a greater rate than the iron valve train, thereby creating valve lash.
Ok, but whats with the fixed rockers. Is there some benefit from them instead of using adjustables to set cold lash at 0-3. Does it make more power?
So, Cranes 22, 20 recommendation for a cold LS motor now makes sense, since the aluminum block will out expand the iron valve train by about 10 thousandths thereby giving you approximately 10 thousandths when hot.
Also, for those who have quieter motors, are you setting the hot lash to less than 10?
But, you suggest 0-3 on an all aluminum motor because it will loosen to about 10 when hot. This obviously mean that the aluminum block and heads expand at a greater rate than the iron valve train, thereby creating valve lash.
Ok, but whats with the fixed rockers. Is there some benefit from them instead of using adjustables to set cold lash at 0-3. Does it make more power?
So, Cranes 22, 20 recommendation for a cold LS motor now makes sense, since the aluminum block will out expand the iron valve train by about 10 thousandths thereby giving you approximately 10 thousandths when hot.
Also, for those who have quieter motors, are you setting the hot lash to less than 10?
Originally Posted by rednari2
Ok, but whats with the fixed rockers. Is there some benefit from them instead of using adjustables to set cold lash at 0-3. Does it make more power?
Also, for those who have quieter motors, are you setting the hot lash to less than 10?
I do target 0-003 PRELOADED valves. In other words, cold, the valve is open between 0 and 003. It gains you more seat duration, but honestly the lobes are ground so that the 050 and 200 durations will not change much with the valves slightly preloaded. MAYBE a degree.
And your crane example math is backwards. If you set 20 thousandths cold on aluminum engine, you will have 30 thousandths lash hot, because aluminum expands faster than steel. So the distance from the cam to the rockers GROWS faster than the steel pushrod grows.
Zero grows to ten, 20 grows to 30
[QUOTE=Darth_V8r;19881642]No, fixed rockers make the same power as adjustable. Roller tip adjustable will make more power vs the stock rockers with their "progressive" ratio. The advantage to fixed is "set it and forget it"
I do target 0-003 PRELOADED valves. In other words, cold, the valve is open between 0 and 003. It gains you more seat duration, but honestly the lobes are ground so that the 050 and 200 durations will not change much with the valves slightly preloaded. MAYBE a degree.
And your crane example math is backwards. If you set 20 thousandths cold on aluminum engine, you will have 30 thousandths lash hot, because aluminum expands faster than steel. So the distance from the cam to the rockers GROWS faster than the steel pushrod grows.
Zero grows to ten, 20 grows to 30[/QUOTE
__________________________________________________ ___________
Then what you are saying is that Cranes is wrong. 22, 20 is listed on their site and when you talk to them. So, you are saying that even with adjustables, set the lash at zero or slightly less.
I believe the members of this forum understand the correct lash setting, but I do not understand why Cranes recommends more. I asked them about valve lash when I first called them to discuss a mechanical regrind of a 114 hydraulic cam I have. I thought 22, 20 was alot after my Gen 1 experience. I was told it was ok because of the way the cam is ground and that it needed a looser setting.
And now I read this. Go figure. Lol.
I do target 0-003 PRELOADED valves. In other words, cold, the valve is open between 0 and 003. It gains you more seat duration, but honestly the lobes are ground so that the 050 and 200 durations will not change much with the valves slightly preloaded. MAYBE a degree.
And your crane example math is backwards. If you set 20 thousandths cold on aluminum engine, you will have 30 thousandths lash hot, because aluminum expands faster than steel. So the distance from the cam to the rockers GROWS faster than the steel pushrod grows.
Zero grows to ten, 20 grows to 30[/QUOTE
__________________________________________________ ___________
Then what you are saying is that Cranes is wrong. 22, 20 is listed on their site and when you talk to them. So, you are saying that even with adjustables, set the lash at zero or slightly less.
I believe the members of this forum understand the correct lash setting, but I do not understand why Cranes recommends more. I asked them about valve lash when I first called them to discuss a mechanical regrind of a 114 hydraulic cam I have. I thought 22, 20 was alot after my Gen 1 experience. I was told it was ok because of the way the cam is ground and that it needed a looser setting.
And now I read this. Go figure. Lol.
Rocker Tip Diameter Hi ALL, the provided "tech" from Rednair2 is not correct about the roller tip rocker arm. The two rockers, if identical, would be compared by the Valve Side Radius diameter with larger being better for HP.
The "lifters" such as a .866/.904 change adds HP, a know fact.
Thus the same engineering applies to Roller Tip Diameter.
I LOVE this thread due to the FACT that I have GREAT PROBLEMS with the HYD "bleed down" over 6000 RPM.
The SAD thing is that many here due not know how simple a Solid upgrade can be done AND at LOW COSTS.
Lance
The "lifters" such as a .866/.904 change adds HP, a know fact.
Thus the same engineering applies to Roller Tip Diameter.
I LOVE this thread due to the FACT that I have GREAT PROBLEMS with the HYD "bleed down" over 6000 RPM.
The SAD thing is that many here due not know how simple a Solid upgrade can be done AND at LOW COSTS.
Lance
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Yes, follow the manufacturers suggested lash. As said in the opening post, the lash is determined by the initial ramp design of the lobe. No one will know better than the company that makes the camshaft as to what lash settings it is designed to use.
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 507
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This is a great point! Changes in lash settings will have 4x more impact on the "seat". ".006" or "advertised" duration than it will on the .050". So, if you loosen up the lash .004" this will only change the .050" duration 2 degrees where it will change the seat timing about 8 degrees.
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Then what you are saying is that Cranes is wrong. 22, 20 is listed on their site and when you talk to them. So, you are saying that even with adjustables, set the lash at zero or slightly less.
.020" - .022" is pretty normal lash for a solid roller. Most of them I've ever dealt with have been anywhere from .016" - .024" in just about every kind of motor. With a few exceptions such as the old 30/30 Duntov. Doesn't matter whether it's LS, SBC, BBC, Frod, or what; the physics are the same no matter who cast the metal or how old it is. It goes more with cam design in general than any property of the "motor".
The .010" expansion thing is just A GUESS; a "rule of thumb", if you will. It's not exact but lots of us that have built solid cam motors with both iron and aluminum castings, have experienced this, and .010" substantially agrees with experience. Back in the day all SBCs and BBCs (for all practical purposes) had iron blocks, but heads could be either Fe or Al. In those, the ROT was .005" - .006" of lash GAIN w aluminum heads (heads grow more than blocks, since they get MUCH hotter), and .002" or so (mostly negligible) lash LOSS w iron heads.
As CamMotion says, the cam mfr designed the lobes, and their lash specs should be followed. (within some sort of limited experimental range perhaps...) So if Crane says .020", you could probably set them to .010" cold in an all-aluminum motor, and they'd be close to .020" hot. Ideally you'd want to set them that way then measure and see if it came out right when hot. Odds are it won't be too far off but I guess that sort of thing depends on how PRECISE you want to be. Me, I'd check, for sure.