Max LS build with AFR 205’s & Stroked LS2.
05-27-2018 | 11:26 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 96
Likes: 13
Max LS build with AFR 205’s & Stroked LS2. I meant LS3 !
Been about 12 years since I last posted here (as “Mirek”). I moved to NYC and had the FRC C5 in storage for 12 years. Moving to California this summer so I am forced, FORCED (I tell my wife) to build a completely new motor (California CARB, why not,etc...). I am shipping to Heritage Performance in SoCal to do the work based on numerous recommendations. Caveat: I MUST use LS7 manifolds for emissions BS. The rest is up in the air. The build WILL require LS7 manifolds to pass visual inspection. I want an extremely badass build. This will be the last one I ever do (or have done).
Had to re-register today because this is the forum that helped me build/sort my current set-up (factory 346, AFR 205’s milled to 61cc, LGM longtubes (second set BORLA made and soon to be for sale), ported LS6, MTI Hammer Cam (yup), 4:10, Shaner, etc....415/418 on a Mustang dyno.
Soooooo here is where I am at after some (a lot) internet research:
I want to keep the milled 205’s and get as much displacement under them as possible, so It looks like I am going to land on a 416 stroked LS3 (right ?) and like a 236/240 Cam. Drivability is a must. Again, the Ls7 manifolds are non negotiable for my situation. Everything else is in play. The 205’s are more than adequate for a 416 (or more ?) so save the “225” speech
I want the velocity and power under the curve.
So 416 LS3, 236 ish CAM and FAST intake is the way to go right......right ? It has been such a long time Ihave been out of the loop and any help would be greatly appreciated. Is Predator still running around here ?
Thanks boys......Mirek
Been about 12 years since I last posted here (as “Mirek”). I moved to NYC and had the FRC C5 in storage for 12 years. Moving to California this summer so I am forced, FORCED (I tell my wife) to build a completely new motor (California CARB, why not,etc...). I am shipping to Heritage Performance in SoCal to do the work based on numerous recommendations. Caveat: I MUST use LS7 manifolds for emissions BS. The rest is up in the air. The build WILL require LS7 manifolds to pass visual inspection. I want an extremely badass build. This will be the last one I ever do (or have done).
Had to re-register today because this is the forum that helped me build/sort my current set-up (factory 346, AFR 205’s milled to 61cc, LGM longtubes (second set BORLA made and soon to be for sale), ported LS6, MTI Hammer Cam (yup), 4:10, Shaner, etc....415/418 on a Mustang dyno.
Soooooo here is where I am at after some (a lot) internet research:
I want to keep the milled 205’s and get as much displacement under them as possible, so It looks like I am going to land on a 416 stroked LS3 (right ?) and like a 236/240 Cam. Drivability is a must. Again, the Ls7 manifolds are non negotiable for my situation. Everything else is in play. The 205’s are more than adequate for a 416 (or more ?) so save the “225” speech
I want the velocity and power under the curve.So 416 LS3, 236 ish CAM and FAST intake is the way to go right......right ? It has been such a long time Ihave been out of the loop and any help would be greatly appreciated. Is Predator still running around here ?
Thanks boys......Mirek
Last edited by Mirek Again; 05-27-2018 at 11:30 AM. Reason: wring engine block reference.
05-27-2018 | 12:35 PM
#6
I would get in touch with Tony Mamo to see what he could do with those 205's. Not to mention his ported MSD ls7 intake is best in the market (and his stealth option looks damn good).
05-27-2018 | 12:52 PM
#7
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 96
Likes: 13
I did. I actually met Tony at SEMA (great guy) back in the day. Both he and Lou G helped me with my build when the 205’s and LG headers first came out. I reached out to him already with my current situation as he has his own shop now in CA but I was not entirely sure based on his response that he could manage/prioritize my build and related CARB requirements much less some random electrical concerns I have. He seems to be a boutique engine builder and not an “all around” solution for my C5. Nobody is better at this stuff than Tony, I went to him first actually — thanks for that input though. I may try to send him the 205’s and a FAST for some porting that I know he has already done for a 383 guy but he is probably super busy - as talented as he is, with his own builds.
(BTW, that Stealth MSD intake looks killer. If he says that is the way to go vs the FAST I will buy that from him. No pricing on his site though
)
(BTW, that Stealth MSD intake looks killer. If he says that is the way to go vs the FAST I will buy that from him. No pricing on his site though
)Last edited by Mirek Again; 05-27-2018 at 12:58 PM. Reason: forgot I take info
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05-28-2018 | 04:07 PM
#8
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 96
Likes: 13
The 205’s look like they will choke a 427 so this is all coming into focus around a torquey 416/AFR 205 build pretty quick and it looks like that will be a relatively rare combo with all the options out there now. Damn good to be back on LS1tech. Hopefully I can get my old handle restored so I can get my LGM’s Longtubes up for sale ! Seems like a lot of variation on forged LS3 short block pricing out there.
05-28-2018 | 05:00 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 96
Likes: 13
Nuts. American Heritage tells me I simply cannot run AFR 205’s on a stroked (416) LS3. Not an option.
DAMN. 416 had such a nice ring to it.
Back to drawing board and likely much much more $$$
2000 FRC
AFR 205,LG Tubes, 410’s, ls6 intake, shaner, etc
420 RWHP about the same in torque on a mustang dyno.
DAMN. 416 had such a nice ring to it.
Back to drawing board and likely much much more $$$
2000 FRC
AFR 205,LG Tubes, 410’s, ls6 intake, shaner, etc
420 RWHP about the same in torque on a mustang dyno.
05-28-2018 | 05:02 PM
#10
Nuts. American Heritage tells me I simply cannot run AFR 205’s on a stroked (416) LS3. Not an option.
DAMN. 416 had such a nice ring to it.
Back to drawing board and likely much much more $$$
2000 FRC
AFR 205,LG Tubes, 410’s, ls6 intake, shaner, etc
420 RWHP about the same in torque on a mustang dyno.
DAMN. 416 had such a nice ring to it.
Back to drawing board and likely much much more $$$
2000 FRC
AFR 205,LG Tubes, 410’s, ls6 intake, shaner, etc
420 RWHP about the same in torque on a mustang dyno.
05-28-2018 | 05:19 PM
#11
TECH Veteran
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,814
Likes: 614
From: Mississippi
It's a 402ci on board with opened up 205 AFR heads and run 10.8s in the quarter in a 3700 lb camaro that traps 130 mph. The cam is by Pat G.
A 416 bore just isn't all that much bigger than a 402-408ci. A 427 vs 402 is another story.
A 416 bore just isn't all that much bigger than a 402-408ci. A 427 vs 402 is another story.
05-28-2018 | 05:30 PM
#13
My buddy's 06 GTO runs Mast 215 heads with a decent size cam and a Fast 92 on a 416 LS3. He made 525 rwhp and 500 rwtq. Sure he might be giving up 30-50 hp with the smaller HCI, but the car is very torquey, a blast to drive, and still damn fast for what it is
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DualQuadDave (11-21-2020)
05-29-2018 | 04:27 AM
#15
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 96
Likes: 13
.......and THAT is why I love this place KCS.
Also, Darth, thanks for checking in I have been reading through your build/etc...for about 4 days now.
Back to a 416 it will be. Not a lot of 416 small head cars running around so it will be fun to see what it does with the 4:10’s.
Plan to reach out to Tony and see is he is willing to touch up my 205’s and port the mid-length FAST 102 as you suggested. The only reason I do not go to the LS3 top end is that it looks like the smaller high velocity 205 ports will do what I want up to about 6200 which will keep me happy when I need it the most without a “huge” compromise 6400+.
Maybe a 236/242 114 will keep it nice and torquey.
Extra points for for anybody that remembers the MTI “hammer” cam
Also, Darth, thanks for checking in I have been reading through your build/etc...for about 4 days now.
Back to a 416 it will be. Not a lot of 416 small head cars running around so it will be fun to see what it does with the 4:10’s.
Plan to reach out to Tony and see is he is willing to touch up my 205’s and port the mid-length FAST 102 as you suggested. The only reason I do not go to the LS3 top end is that it looks like the smaller high velocity 205 ports will do what I want up to about 6200 which will keep me happy when I need it the most without a “huge” compromise 6400+.
Maybe a 236/242 114 will keep it nice and torquey.
Extra points for for anybody that remembers the MTI “hammer” cam
05-29-2018 | 08:04 AM
#18
You can't get the FAST mid-length runners for a cathedral port. LS3 only. And the mid-length runners are for 6500+ RPM power at the expense of everything below that. Completely counter to what you're trying to do. The MSD comes in Cathedral port... but it's the same thing. Power up top for loss of torque in the midrange. But you'll have so much torque in the midrange it may not matter. But the small heads will limit the power up top either way and will require more cam than you may be willing to live with.
I would do a 402-based LS2 with the AFR 205s opened up for a 4" bore. It would perform reasonably well. Someone did that years ago with an old SLP 402 block and put an MS3 cam in it and it did 520/520 or something close to that.
Tony even did an MMS 223 on a 416 and did something like 520/520 with a similar 236 duration cam.
It's pretty much a given that with heads that flow 300cfm in a small port with a mid 230s cam you'll hit 500/500 on a 402+ combo. Getting above that requires more cam and more heads. However, the LS7 manifolds are going to need some more exhaust duration and may limit how much power you can really make. I'd aim for an 8-12 degree spit even with the AFR heads. So a 236/248 would be good.
The question is... will a 500/500 combo feel considerably faster than your combo now. And the answer is... not really. The added torque will be nice when you can put the power down. But it's a much smaller bump in power than when you went from a stock motor to a h/c car.
Honestly, a small turbo would be a more worthwhile investment. However, that won't pass CARB... so it's better than nothing I suppose.
I would do a 402-based LS2 with the AFR 205s opened up for a 4" bore. It would perform reasonably well. Someone did that years ago with an old SLP 402 block and put an MS3 cam in it and it did 520/520 or something close to that.
Tony even did an MMS 223 on a 416 and did something like 520/520 with a similar 236 duration cam.
It's pretty much a given that with heads that flow 300cfm in a small port with a mid 230s cam you'll hit 500/500 on a 402+ combo. Getting above that requires more cam and more heads. However, the LS7 manifolds are going to need some more exhaust duration and may limit how much power you can really make. I'd aim for an 8-12 degree spit even with the AFR heads. So a 236/248 would be good.
The question is... will a 500/500 combo feel considerably faster than your combo now. And the answer is... not really. The added torque will be nice when you can put the power down. But it's a much smaller bump in power than when you went from a stock motor to a h/c car.
Honestly, a small turbo would be a more worthwhile investment. However, that won't pass CARB... so it's better than nothing I suppose.
Last edited by JakeFusion; 05-29-2018 at 08:09 AM.
05-29-2018 | 10:45 AM
#19
I’m in N. Ga. where emissions are like Bigfoot. So I have to ask here, is there not a CARB compliant header setup that you can use out there in Cali? Nobody runs headers in Cali?
Really looking forward to watching this come together.
Really looking forward to watching this come together.
05-29-2018 | 10:55 AM
#20
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 21,537
Likes: 3,287
From: Central Cal.
The only headers that are legal here in Cali are shorties that keep the converters(ONLY OEM type here...) in the stock location, as they must be. Even then the headers need a CARB exemption on them, and there aren't too many that bother with getting that. So for most of us, that means cast manifolds and a good cat-back.