LS1 SBE build
12-27-2018, 12:38 AM
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LS1 SBE build Alright, I have some plans. I just want to know if I'm missing any parts on the engine itself, and leaving a ton on the table that I could get for cheap. So, below I'm going to list my current modifications, then my planned modifications. Just comment if you see anything I'm leaving on the table for $35 per hp or less, or even more, just put your two cents in. Dead set on sticking with the LS6 intake and the stock bottom end.
Current-
1. LS6 intake
2. Small Comp Cam (Getting Scrapped ASAP)
3. Smoothed, ported and polished stock casting 1998 heads
4. LT headers
5. 3" single exhaust to muffler then duals
6. Lid/Smooth bellows
(Obvious supporting mods for cam)
Planned-
1. Tick SNS Stage 3 camshaft
2. Tick Dual Valvesprings
3. Tick Pushrods
4. GM LS6 oil pump
5. GM LS6 Timing Chain
6. Comp Trunion Upgrade
7. Racetronix Matched 63LB injectors for LS1 or stock white GTP injectors
8. NGK V-Power TR6 I believe for plugs
9. MSD wires
10. Ported TB, ported intake, maybe a few other free mods
11. Wideband 02 sensors (obviously)
Like I said, please feel free to list any further parts you believe I should do, for under $35 per horsepower.
Current-
1. LS6 intake
2. Small Comp Cam (Getting Scrapped ASAP)
3. Smoothed, ported and polished stock casting 1998 heads
4. LT headers
5. 3" single exhaust to muffler then duals
6. Lid/Smooth bellows
(Obvious supporting mods for cam)
Planned-
1. Tick SNS Stage 3 camshaft
2. Tick Dual Valvesprings
3. Tick Pushrods
4. GM LS6 oil pump
5. GM LS6 Timing Chain
6. Comp Trunion Upgrade
7. Racetronix Matched 63LB injectors for LS1 or stock white GTP injectors
8. NGK V-Power TR6 I believe for plugs
9. MSD wires
10. Ported TB, ported intake, maybe a few other free mods
11. Wideband 02 sensors (obviously)
Like I said, please feel free to list any further parts you believe I should do, for under $35 per horsepower.
12-27-2018, 03:43 AM
#2
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You could find some 243/799 heads and port them yourself. You see them for 400 pretty often. And I’d use the GTP injectors. You can’t find injector data for the racetronix. I had 42s before and the car kept a midrange stumble at part throttle.
12-27-2018, 04:49 AM
#3
Sounds like a fun build and I look forward to reading about it. Here are a few random thoughts about doing heads & cam.
25% Under drive pulley might be worth adding to your list. Probably 5-8whp depending on how high the rpm.
If your 98 heads haven't been ported yet a set of 243/799 cores will be about $350-$400. The cost to port either set of heads is the same. The ported 243/799 heads will be at least 12-15 whp better than the ported 98's. Easily within your $35 per hp requirements.
With the heads off of the engine, I would also replaced the 21 year old stock LS1 lifters with newer improved LS7 lifters and new lifter trays. I would trust the original oil pump before I would trust original lifters in most cases. Likewise, if the intake manifold gaskets are original I would replace them. After 18 years the intake gaskets on 99 TA were in poor condition.
Tick Performance "SNS" torqueMAX Stage 3 Camshaft for LS1 & LS6 Engines Standard Lobes: 235/243 .630"/.610" LSA111+2 - I definitely would want a new set of lifters with your new cam.
A lot of folks don't like the Comp Trunion Upgrade for the rockers because they have had issues with it. There are several other trunion upgrades with much better reputations.
Why do you need Racetronix Matched 63LB injectors for a heads and cam package? A selection of smaller 42# to 48# pound injectors would support NA to probably 500 whp. Spraying a big dry shot of NOS? Keeping 58 psi of fuel pressure maybe an issue with that big injector unless you have a Racetronix hot wire fuel pump. I wouldn't trust a 21 year old stock fuel pump to keep up and doubt a fresh stock fuel pump will keep up at higher rpm with the big 63 pound injectors. I think the injectors choice will cause you headaches tuning the car as mentioned above.
25% Under drive pulley might be worth adding to your list. Probably 5-8whp depending on how high the rpm.
If your 98 heads haven't been ported yet a set of 243/799 cores will be about $350-$400. The cost to port either set of heads is the same. The ported 243/799 heads will be at least 12-15 whp better than the ported 98's. Easily within your $35 per hp requirements.
With the heads off of the engine, I would also replaced the 21 year old stock LS1 lifters with newer improved LS7 lifters and new lifter trays. I would trust the original oil pump before I would trust original lifters in most cases. Likewise, if the intake manifold gaskets are original I would replace them. After 18 years the intake gaskets on 99 TA were in poor condition.
Tick Performance "SNS" torqueMAX Stage 3 Camshaft for LS1 & LS6 Engines Standard Lobes: 235/243 .630"/.610" LSA111+2 - I definitely would want a new set of lifters with your new cam.
A lot of folks don't like the Comp Trunion Upgrade for the rockers because they have had issues with it. There are several other trunion upgrades with much better reputations.
Why do you need Racetronix Matched 63LB injectors for a heads and cam package? A selection of smaller 42# to 48# pound injectors would support NA to probably 500 whp. Spraying a big dry shot of NOS? Keeping 58 psi of fuel pressure maybe an issue with that big injector unless you have a Racetronix hot wire fuel pump. I wouldn't trust a 21 year old stock fuel pump to keep up and doubt a fresh stock fuel pump will keep up at higher rpm with the big 63 pound injectors. I think the injectors choice will cause you headaches tuning the car as mentioned above.
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 12-27-2018 at 05:13 AM.
12-27-2018, 11:42 AM
#4
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I would do the LS2 timing chain over the LS6. it's thicker.
12-27-2018, 12:51 PM
#5
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Cosmetic .040 head gaskets, price diff of what $100 vs the oem replacement fel pros and worth a few hp in the comp bump.
At a minimum a comp valve job and blend bowls if you don’t want to hog the heads out, as noted can’t go wrong with some 243s
I went with the summit bushed reunions, just installed them last week on my build. They really look like a debadged Straub kit tbh, very good quality
+1 on lifters and ls2 trays, for reliability
At a minimum a comp valve job and blend bowls if you don’t want to hog the heads out, as noted can’t go wrong with some 243s
I went with the summit bushed reunions, just installed them last week on my build. They really look like a debadged Straub kit tbh, very good quality
+1 on lifters and ls2 trays, for reliability
12-27-2018, 01:30 PM
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Sounds like a fun build and I look forward to reading about it. Here are a few random thoughts about doing heads & cam.
25% Under drive pulley might be worth adding to your list. Probably 5-8whp depending on how high the rpm.
If your 98 heads haven't been ported yet a set of 243/799 cores will be about $350-$400. The cost to port either set of heads is the same. The ported 243/799 heads will be at least 12-15 whp better than the ported 98's. Easily within your $35 per hp requirements.
With the heads off of the engine, I would also replaced the 21 year old stock LS1 lifters with newer improved LS7 lifters and new lifter trays. I would trust the original oil pump before I would trust original lifters in most cases. Likewise, if the intake manifold gaskets are original I would replace them. After 18 years the intake gaskets on 99 TA were in poor condition.
Tick Performance "SNS" torqueMAX Stage 3 Camshaft for LS1 & LS6 Engines Standard Lobes: 235/243 .630"/.610" LSA111+2 - I definitely would want a new set of lifters with your new cam.
A lot of folks don't like the Comp Trunion Upgrade for the rockers because they have had issues with it. There are several other trunion upgrades with much better reputations.
Why do you need Racetronix Matched 63LB injectors for a heads and cam package? A selection of smaller 42# to 48# pound injectors would support NA to probably 500 whp. Spraying a big dry shot of NOS? Keeping 58 psi of fuel pressure maybe an issue with that big injector unless you have a Racetronix hot wire fuel pump. I wouldn't trust a 21 year old stock fuel pump to keep up and doubt a fresh stock fuel pump will keep up at higher rpm with the big 63 pound injectors. I think the injectors choice will cause you headaches tuning the car as mentioned above.
25% Under drive pulley might be worth adding to your list. Probably 5-8whp depending on how high the rpm.
If your 98 heads haven't been ported yet a set of 243/799 cores will be about $350-$400. The cost to port either set of heads is the same. The ported 243/799 heads will be at least 12-15 whp better than the ported 98's. Easily within your $35 per hp requirements.
With the heads off of the engine, I would also replaced the 21 year old stock LS1 lifters with newer improved LS7 lifters and new lifter trays. I would trust the original oil pump before I would trust original lifters in most cases. Likewise, if the intake manifold gaskets are original I would replace them. After 18 years the intake gaskets on 99 TA were in poor condition.
Tick Performance "SNS" torqueMAX Stage 3 Camshaft for LS1 & LS6 Engines Standard Lobes: 235/243 .630"/.610" LSA111+2 - I definitely would want a new set of lifters with your new cam.
A lot of folks don't like the Comp Trunion Upgrade for the rockers because they have had issues with it. There are several other trunion upgrades with much better reputations.
Why do you need Racetronix Matched 63LB injectors for a heads and cam package? A selection of smaller 42# to 48# pound injectors would support NA to probably 500 whp. Spraying a big dry shot of NOS? Keeping 58 psi of fuel pressure maybe an issue with that big injector unless you have a Racetronix hot wire fuel pump. I wouldn't trust a 21 year old stock fuel pump to keep up and doubt a fresh stock fuel pump will keep up at higher rpm with the big 63 pound injectors. I think the injectors choice will cause you headaches tuning the car as mentioned above.
12-27-2018, 01:33 PM
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Cosmetic .040 head gaskets, price diff of what $100 vs the oem replacement fel pros and worth a few hp in the comp bump.
At a minimum a comp valve job and blend bowls if you don’t want to hog the heads out, as noted can’t go wrong with some 243s
I went with the summit bushed reunions, just installed them last week on my build. They really look like a debadged Straub kit tbh, very good quality
+1 on lifters and ls2 trays, for reliability
At a minimum a comp valve job and blend bowls if you don’t want to hog the heads out, as noted can’t go wrong with some 243s
I went with the summit bushed reunions, just installed them last week on my build. They really look like a debadged Straub kit tbh, very good quality
+1 on lifters and ls2 trays, for reliability
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12-27-2018, 03:25 PM
#8
Teching In
Fair enough, well you could hold off on the gaskets and get a few .040 feeler gauges and just snug (light touch!) the head down and check ptv with clay, don’t torque it down with just feeler gauges in lol. The net benefit of tighter quench in less det and better throttle response is worth a look. Going stock 10.25:1 up to about 10.95:1 from the .040 swapped LS6s I’ve seen from a quick forum search. General rule is 3-4% bump per 1 full point, so 0.7 increase say a 450fwhp motor for sake of conserving estimate, 3.5% you should expect ~10hp I think that’s well inside your $35 per hp budget to give it a look
12-27-2018, 03:54 PM
#9
I personally would find a way to run bigger than 3" y pipe exhaust. True duals or 3.5 would yield more power.
The rocker arm trunion deal I would leave alone. Most do more harm than good. I spin mine 7400rpm and have for a long time, no issues.
Also not sure on the wideband 02s deal? Most tuners can get the car close enough with their own wideband to have the stock 02 sensors run the car just fine. Unless you have a standalone?
As far as the injectors thing, are you running a stand alone ECM to control dry nitrous? If so I would go bigger on the injector. 80lbs here on a 450 pump.
The rocker arm trunion deal I would leave alone. Most do more harm than good. I spin mine 7400rpm and have for a long time, no issues.
Also not sure on the wideband 02s deal? Most tuners can get the car close enough with their own wideband to have the stock 02 sensors run the car just fine. Unless you have a standalone?
As far as the injectors thing, are you running a stand alone ECM to control dry nitrous? If so I would go bigger on the injector. 80lbs here on a 450 pump.
12-28-2018, 12:24 AM
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I personally would find a way to run bigger than 3" y pipe exhaust. True duals or 3.5 would yield more power.
The rocker arm trunion deal I would leave alone. Most do more harm than good. I spin mine 7400rpm and have for a long time, no issues.
Also not sure on the wideband 02s deal? Most tuners can get the car close enough with their own wideband to have the stock 02 sensors run the car just fine. Unless you have a standalone?
As far as the injectors thing, are you running a stand alone ECM to control dry nitrous? If so I would go bigger on the injector. 80lbs here on a 450 pump.
The rocker arm trunion deal I would leave alone. Most do more harm than good. I spin mine 7400rpm and have for a long time, no issues.
Also not sure on the wideband 02s deal? Most tuners can get the car close enough with their own wideband to have the stock 02 sensors run the car just fine. Unless you have a standalone?
As far as the injectors thing, are you running a stand alone ECM to control dry nitrous? If so I would go bigger on the injector. 80lbs here on a 450 pump.
12-28-2018, 12:27 AM
#11
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Fair enough, well you could hold off on the gaskets and get a few .040 feeler gauges and just snug (light touch!) the head down and check ptv with clay, don’t torque it down with just feeler gauges in lol. The net benefit of tighter quench in less det and better throttle response is worth a look. Going stock 10.25:1 up to about 10.95:1 from the .040 swapped LS6s I’ve seen from a quick forum search. General rule is 3-4% bump per 1 full point, so 0.7 increase say a 450fwhp motor for sake of conserving estimate, 3.5% you should expect ~10hp I think that’s well inside your $35 per hp budget to give it a look
12-28-2018, 02:55 AM
#12
What do you plan to use the car for?
How high do you want to rev it? Would you be wiling to spend more to safely rev it higher? Do the 98s have issues that make it expensive to rev them to 7k or 7500?
No suggestions, just some questions.
How high do you want to rev it? Would you be wiling to spend more to safely rev it higher? Do the 98s have issues that make it expensive to rev them to 7k or 7500?
No suggestions, just some questions.
12-28-2018, 06:38 AM
#13
E85, I get the bigger injectors with that in mind. While no an hp adder, I'm curious if your planing/running one of those flex fuel modules and Tahoe program in your stock 98 PCM to have a true gas/E85 "flex - fuel" setup?
Can you show us a picture of the type of Y pipe your going to run? The Flowmaster style is very good, some of the others are horrible.
BTW - on rocker arms, WS6 Store has a nice trunnion set up (have these in my 99TA) and another stock rocker arm with retained bearings by the OEM manufacturer. It sounds pretty sweet.
FWIW - The rod bolts on 97-00 cars are good but not quite as good as the improved rod bolts on the 01+ cars. A lot of folks have went 7,000 rpm or so with either set of rod bolts. It's really a question of how comfortable one is with doing the higher rpm. My HCI 99 TA had the rev limiter set at 6,800 rpm, bounced off the Rev limiter many times.
98's are great cars, the 98's seldom have that bubbling sail panel issue that eventually shows up on all of the 99-02 cars that get enough sun exposure. Plus the water temp gauge actually works I would happily toss on several new set of rockers to avoid bubbled sail panel issues.
Can you show us a picture of the type of Y pipe your going to run? The Flowmaster style is very good, some of the others are horrible.
BTW - on rocker arms, WS6 Store has a nice trunnion set up (have these in my 99TA) and another stock rocker arm with retained bearings by the OEM manufacturer. It sounds pretty sweet.
FWIW - The rod bolts on 97-00 cars are good but not quite as good as the improved rod bolts on the 01+ cars. A lot of folks have went 7,000 rpm or so with either set of rod bolts. It's really a question of how comfortable one is with doing the higher rpm. My HCI 99 TA had the rev limiter set at 6,800 rpm, bounced off the Rev limiter many times.
98's are great cars, the 98's seldom have that bubbling sail panel issue that eventually shows up on all of the 99-02 cars that get enough sun exposure. Plus the water temp gauge actually works
I would happily toss on several new set of rockers to avoid bubbled sail panel issues.
12-28-2018, 08:21 AM
#14
E85, I get the bigger injectors with that in mind. While no an hp adder, I'm curious if your planing/running one of those flex fuel modules and Tahoe program in your stock 98 PCM to have a true gas/E85 "flex - fuel" setup?
Can you show us a picture of the type of Y pipe your going to run? The Flowmaster style is very good, some of the others are horrible.
BTW - on rocker arms, WS6 Store has a nice trunnion set up (have these in my 99TA) and another stock rocker arm with retained bearings by the OEM manufacturer. It sounds pretty sweet.
FWIW - The rod bolts on 97-00 cars are good but not quite as good as the improved rod bolts on the 01+ cars. A lot of folks have went 7,000 rpm or so with either set of rod bolts. It's really a question of how comfortable one is with doing the higher rpm. My HCI 99 TA had the rev limiter set at 6,800 rpm, bounced off the Rev limiter many times.
98's are great cars, the 98's seldom have that bubbling sail panel issue that eventually shows up on all of the 99-02 cars that get enough sun exposure. Plus the water temp gauge actually works I would happily toss on several new set of rockers to avoid bubbled sail panel issues.
Can you show us a picture of the type of Y pipe your going to run? The Flowmaster style is very good, some of the others are horrible.
BTW - on rocker arms, WS6 Store has a nice trunnion set up (have these in my 99TA) and another stock rocker arm with retained bearings by the OEM manufacturer. It sounds pretty sweet.
FWIW - The rod bolts on 97-00 cars are good but not quite as good as the improved rod bolts on the 01+ cars. A lot of folks have went 7,000 rpm or so with either set of rod bolts. It's really a question of how comfortable one is with doing the higher rpm. My HCI 99 TA had the rev limiter set at 6,800 rpm, bounced off the Rev limiter many times.
98's are great cars, the 98's seldom have that bubbling sail panel issue that eventually shows up on all of the 99-02 cars that get enough sun exposure. Plus the water temp gauge actually works
I would happily toss on several new set of rockers to avoid bubbled sail panel issues.Only 0411 ot p59
-Mavn
12-28-2018, 09:58 AM
#15
Notice, I'm trying to spend a maximum of $35 per horsepower... I'm gonna spend close to a grand on exhaust stuff. And I have a 98... Trunions are worse in the 98s than other years, they're known for scattering needle bearings through the motor. I'm pretty sure LS cars have widebands factory. Plus, I have to put an extra one in for the AFR gauge I plan on installing in my car. And no, I run a stock ECM. Also, I put a lot of miles on it on highway, so that large of an injector will drop my mileage drastically. Shooting for 500 wheel tops, maybe 550. That is on spray. So I believe the GTP injectors should be plenty, I may want a touch more.
Injector size does not affect fuel mileage. Just because the injector is bigger doesn't mean its squirting more fuel in. Inability to tune the vehicle properly does affect fuel milage though. Also if you are concerned with fuel mileage i would stick with pump gas and not E85, your mileage will go down drastically with Ethanol fuel. Again, if you arent running dry nitrous i dont see the reason for an injector even as big as you planned. LS3 injectors are plenty big for that power level naturally aspirated.
550 on spray is pretty easy.
12-28-2018, 08:35 PM
#16
10 Second Club
The problem with the injectors isn’t so much the size as it is the brand. Racetronix doesn’t provide the injector data to enter into the tune. The IFR table gets raped and you end up with a lot of problems. If your concerned with mileage I’d stay away from e85 and run some fast 36s/GTP injectors(data easily found) and if you plan to spray just run a wet kit. I’m making 571/522 NA on a single racetronix pump and Hotwire kit so I think you’d be good on the fuel system.
01-04-2019, 12:54 PM
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E85 in a properly tuned car more than counteracts the mileage losses in cost, at least around my area. I am from the 402 (Nebraska) where a large amount of ethanol is actually made. E85 is consistently under $1.75 a gallon, usually around $1.50 or less. And I do not want to run FlexFuel anyways, it would make me give up some power on either fuel. And either way I will have a wideband with my AFR gauge regardless of what stock 02s are. And I want to avoid a wet shot for now, because I am staying with a factory style intake and don't like the possibility of fuel puddling. Only want to run a 50-100 shot anyways so I should be fine with a dry shot.