If you are going to work on the engine a lot I suggest getting a good torque wrench with the angle capability. Snap-On has some nice ones. They are kind of pricey but worth it if you use them a lot. If not there are cheaper ones and the cheap angle finder you put on a standard ratchet

 

Cannot post a non-sponsored link, but if you google "Toolsource Ratchet mount digital angle gauge" you will find it for about $90. I like it, because it doesn't require you to try to fit a typical angle gauge wheel in a very tight space where you cannot fit one.

 

Nice thread. The buyers "mechanic" is an idiot. 35 ft lbs on rod bolts is certain disaster.

 

Could I get some of you to explain why 35 isn't enough? Tell him why just putting a torque wrench on something and turning clockwise isn't good (break away torque, overtorqued fastener, etc), and what procedure you would recommend or do if it was your engine? How important is it to know if your torque wrench is in proper calibration?

 

There are plenty of LS1 engine assembly books that go over most of that stuff.

 

He doesn't seem interested in doing research to prove to himself that he should have listened to me. Figured if some experienced people in here would add it in this thread, it would be right here for him to see.

Right now, he still feels that his machinist was right and I was wrong. Now, I need to point out, this machinist IS very talented and has built some well known high HP LS engines. I get why this kid trusted him. I don't get why he wouldn't question the specifications that I provided to him that happened to be the same GM specs as posted earlier in this thread. At my job, we are told to trust but verify. We have zero room for error. Always look up the information as specs change. Kind of like second version LS rod bolts. They used to be 15 lbs plus 75 degrees. Now that spec is 15 lbs plus 85. Obviously, they determined that 75 degrees of rotation was insufficient.

FYI, 35 ft/lbs is about 15 lbs plus 20 degrees.

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It's pretty easy, most bottom end stuff and even the heads, the factory bolts are torque +angle, not just a straight ftlb reading. Those are mostly done for aftermarket bolts like ARP.

 

I my self have tested this theory just to see what the torque would be. All bolts torqued 15 Lbs ft then stretched to the proper 85 degrees. All bolts tested in the 46-48 Flt lbs range. These are on full floating rods for what its worth.

Even knowing that spec, I would not go in and tighten them straight to the spec. Gm want's you to stretch the bolt a certain amount to maintain the clamping load. As mentioned, GM spent the time, money, and development of not just the bolt but the fastener tightening specification to make sure warranty work was done properly.

Here is an article back from 2002 on GM rod bolt identification. https://www.enginebuildermag.com/200...t-g-u-engines/
Here is an article back from 2007 on GM rod bolts specifications for these engines. https://www.enginebuildermag.com/200...-gm-rod-bolts/

Just saying the info is out there. Not hard to find either on an engine that is nearly 21 years old and was released for the 1997 model year....

 

How do we even know the guy used a tq wrench or that it was accurate? How does he know it's accurate? He obviously did not follow procedure, did he even put the right caps on the right rods? There's a ton of things that could have caused his problem, like abuse and neglect. Which is evident by him saying it started knocking and he continued to drive it.


I could write something up but then it will be some guys word against some guys word.

This is an article from engine builder magazine. It will hold up in court. And it would be good for your customer to read too.

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/200...rque-to-angle/

 

00pooterSS, That's a good article about Torque to Yield and Torque to Angle fasteners. It lays out everything in that article.

 

I picked it because it should be all he needs. That combined with the other info in here he should be set for court and it should be an easy win. Besides that it was a used engine sold between two private parties. Unless it was sold with a bill of sale stating a guarantee then it is "as is" and no warranty or guarantee applies. That's the crappy way to approach the subject but it is part of the deal, and all of us are familiar with it. Just like buying a used car.

As for the damage assessment, the damage was caused by the rod end caps coming off. That is only going to happen if the bolts were not tight enough and backed out, or if the engine was severely over revved. Either case is the fault of the end user.

 

Guy. This is what I would tell him.

Look man, I'm sorry the engine failed on you. I did give you the correct torque specs and method per the manufacturer. I also encouraged you on more than one occasion to do it that way, the proper way. I understand you trust your mechanic, but he is not General motors and he gave you incorrect instruction. I wholeheartedly feel that I am not responsible for this mistake on your part. Had you torqued it to the proper spec, I feel that we would not be having this issue but if for some reason we would, I would make it right in any way that I could. I'm going to provide you with information that proves that I am correct in this matter and if you would still like to pursue this in court, well so be it, although I hope that you reconsider your position and own up to your own mistake and it does not come to that.


That, I think, is the most diplomatic way to handle it.

 

I say the original poster is a poser. Sorry dude, don't know you from adam, but this whole thread is bs and reading into it, it seems you were the one that did not understand and then flipped your story. Member since 2008, meh.

 

 

He's likely old school used to old methods and has been lucky with his LS builds. Or so he tells people....

 

Totally understand your perspective. However, I am actually the seller. I felt bad for the kid and gave him his 5.3 back that he felt was worth $400. Therefore, I feel like I have already given back more than I needed to. I had originally thought I was going to give the kid a break. However, after all he did was place the blame on me, I decided not to. He was very pushy and demanding. After I figured out he had no intention admitting he had done wrong, I decided to get a mediator involved. Mediator told me a week or two ago he just wanted the engine back to be done with it so that is what I did. Yesterday, he texts me asking if I had done my testing on the bolts. I said yes and then told him the results. To this, he said "Well, I guess I can do my test now. Shouldn't take long.".

Any of this you guys want validated, let me know and I can screenshot and crop text messages. I will crop his name. It will be pretty obvious I am the seller as my text will be on the right....

 

No, he is truly a good machinist and engine builder in this area. He has built the engines in a few high profile cars online.

 

I do believe he used one. As for accuracy, I highly doubt it. I should have taken mine over when the engine was torn down but I didn't. I showed him with is own wrench how a fastener may click but, after loosening and re tightening, the wrench flats would end in a different spot. He was told 55 for inside main bolts. Upon tighten only, his wrench clicked. When I loosened it and re tightened at exactly the same torque, they would go two to three wrench flats tighter. Sadly, the only rod bolts we didn't remove were the ones from the remaining broken rod on the crank. When I got home, I checked it with my calibrated Snap On Techwrench and it broke free at 18 lbs. Now, this could have been due to all of the stress it took when the engine failed, I can't say for sure.

His torque wrench was a Snap On clicker style, 3/8" drice, and I think it was 5-75 ft/lb. When it broke over and clicked, the click seemed very dull. I am comparing that to my Snap On 1/2" drive clicker which makes a pretty sharp, and audible, snap when it clicks.

 

I used to work at a company where we had our own calibration lab, a freshly calibrated snap on 3/8 were very good when fresh,
drip them on concrete a time or two and it was nothing to lose or gain 10 ft lbs..

For critical stuff they eventually went to fixed wrenches (don't remember the brand) , the cal lab would set them ,, then pin them so they only did 1 setting.
We would have 8 or ten of them in different torque settings in the tool box, we were told to stop using them if they got dropped and send them to the cal lab..
There is definitely a diff in quality between Snap-on off the truck, and mail order.. Especially the aerospace all stainless torque wrenches..

Cheers!

 

I got a classy pm from White Lightning 2. Thanks, I sincerely appreciate it!