I wasnt insinuating their products were bad. Just wondered about a ported pump flowing too much. Thanks for the input!

 

so which came first...the chicken or the egg?

use a 20-50w to combat heat related issues or a 5-30w for better flow?

or does it boil down to some special oil or using ....not using a high volume....OR HP pump?

color me more confused

 

That largely depends not only on bearing clearance and temperature, but also on the quality of the oil used as well. All oils have a high temp, high shear (HTHS) rating which is normally conducted at 150*C (302*F). This test measures the oil's film thickness under high heat and pressure. It's the best simulation for a running journal bearing in an engine.

Most of the time, a higher oil grade corresponds to a higher HTHS rating, but not always. A good example is Red Line 5w-30 and Driven LS30 5w-30 both have HTHS ratings that rival some 40 and 50 grade oils. They maintain an oil film at high heat and pressure extremely well mostly due to their ester content. (Polyol ester specifically) In this case, you could get both better thermal stability and better flow.

I always say that the best oil for any engine is the thinnest (least viscous) oil that can meet the minimum oil film thickness (MOFT) called for by the rod and main bearings. The valvetrain largely operates in boundary lubrication anyway, with the exception of hydraulic lifters, so MOFT isn't much of a factor there.

I say all this because it's whats important for the engine. The specific heat of the oil is mostly the same regardless of viscosity meaning a 0w-2 oil used in NHRA Pro Stock has the same heat transfer characteristics as Nitro 70 used in NHRA Top Fuel. (mostly) The differences in heat comes from increased fluid friction caused by that higher viscosity. Most notably when trying to force a more viscous oil through a smaller clearance. A problem with higher oil temps is aeration. The hotter an oil gets, the more it tends to trap air as insoluble bubbles. Air doesn't lubricate so keep that in mind. If you're lucky, the aeration will foam at the surface in the pan and evaporate off.

The NHRA Top Fuel engines could run on 0w-2 and protect those engines sufficiently. The reason they run a 70 grade oil is because of the nitrometh fuel. Fuel dilution in the oil is such a problem that the oil will drop a few grades before the race is over.

NASCAR teams found the benefits of lower viscosity oils quite a while ago. Most of the oil used in those engines is in the range of 0w-10 to 0w-20.

In summary, spec the oil to the bearing clearance and use of the engine, not the power output. The oil can take all the power you can throw at it but only if it can flow through the engine efficiently. If you find that your oil temps are getting too high for comfort, you're much better off adding an oil cooler and/or increasing oil pan capacity, than moving to a more viscous oil.

Sorry about the novel. Hopefully it helps.

 

If you believe in creationism the chicken was created on day six and sometime later laid eggs.

If you believe in evolution dinosaurs laid eggs millions of years before the chicken evolved.

Easy!

 

@poly, without quoting your whole post, and a completely different application -- home made jet engine.

We started out trying to use 10-40 because we were afraid of the heat but we struggled to get enough rpm to generate good thrust.

As we thinned out the oil we got better and better thrust. Would have loved to try sewing machine oil but never did. Got scared it would get too hot and burn up. Because as it thinned rpm increased.

 

Most Turbines (gas or steam) run 10w oil. The exit oil temperature from the bearings is closely monitored to maintain a good oil wedge and proper lift. Too hot and you get excessive wear, too cold and you get "Oil Whip" which is a whole other discussion...

 

Next time, try a low viscosity oil like 0w-10. Works great for that application. I've seen low viscosity compressor oil work as well.

 

I am going to chik fil.......have my chicken sammich.....scrambled

 

so where can we find HTHS ratings on various oils ? is that the only number we should look at when looking for and comparing oils

 

HTHS is what I consider to be the main indicator of an oil's performance. Many companies list the HTHS rating for their oil on their website under "Typical Properties" or something similar.

API requirements HTHS150 per grade...

xxw-20 = 2.6 cP or higher
xxw-30 = 2.9 cP or higher
xxw-40 = 3.5 cP or higher (except 15w-40 = 3.7cP)
xxw-50 = 3.7 cP or higher

These are minimum specs so some higher ends of one grade can overlap into another. A good example...

Red Line 5w-30, HTHS = 3.7 cP
https://www.redlineoil.com/5w30-motor-oil

Mobil 1 FS 0w-40, HTHS = 3.6 cP
https://www.mobil.com/English-GB/Pas...obil-1-FS-0W40

Mobil 1 Racing 0w-50, HTHS = 3.8 cP
https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/m...l-1-racing-oil

The RL 5w-30 has a higher HTHS than M1 0w-40, even though it's a lower grade, and just under M1 0w-50.

Looking at the data sheets also shows the kinematic viscosity at 100*C (212*F) and 40*C (104*F). This is what determines the oil grades. For the KV100...

xxw-20 = 6.9 - 9.2 cSt
xxw-30 = 9.3 - 12.4 cSt
xxw-40 = 12.5 - 16.2 cSt
xxw-50 = 16.3 - 21.8 cSt

Which as you can see with the HTHS above, the oil grade tells you little about the oil's performance. It's extremely outdated, and needs reformed. Also note that the oil grades cover a range of viscosity. Two oils could have KV100s of 12.4 and 12.5, one a 30 grade and other a 40 grade, and yet the viscosity nearly identical. You could also have two oils at 9.3 and 16.2, still only 1 grade apart, even though one is 74% more viscous than the other.

NOACK / volatility is the second most important spec I look at, but typically isn't published openly. This tests an oil's evaporation rate at high heat. API maximum evaporation for a 1 hour test is 15%. I personally don't like to see it over 10%. This spec can determine oil consumption if you're losing it by the PCV as oil vapor. This spec is independent of oil grade. This is why some people go to a higher oil grade hoping to decrease oil consumption, but end actually increasing consumption if that higher grade oil happens to be more volatile.

 

so the .1 diff between M1 and redline is that much on the scale or just minor ?

I have more questions....care to start another thread for us curious types ?

BITOG is great for humor ( luv the flame wars ! ).....but the real info about oil is buried deep sometimes

 

The 0.1 is minor. Most engines wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two. It just shows that all isn't what it seems with the oil grades. The major difference though is in how well the oil holds up over time. The stout PAO/POE base oil in RedLine will remain at that high HTHS for much of the duration of the oil change as it doesn't shear much. It'll still be 3.5-3.6 after 5,000+ miles. The M1 0w-40 will shear down to a 0w-30 before 1,000 miles and probably end up with an HTHS around 3.1-3.2 by 5,000 miles. The M1 Racing 0w-50 is loaded with VII polymers and will shear quickly. That 3.8 HTHS will be under 3.4 before 1,000 miles, which is further than oil was ever really meant to go anyway.

BITOG is a good site if you know what to look for. The articles published on the site are useful, and sourced from SAE and STLE research papers. The white paper section is an excellent resource. There's several very knowledgeable people on there including tribologists, petroleum engineers, and oil formulators. There's also a bunch of people who think they know more than the engineers. The key is to figure out the difference, and follow those with valuable information.

 

Haven’t been on BITOG in quite a while. Sounds like it hasn’t changed much...

 

I post on there once in a blue moon. After the admins started filtering information that didn't favor Shell products, I stepped away quite a bit, as did many other intelligent people. It started going downhill before that though when Bob himself left, and Gary Allen died. There's a member there named Motorking who's been with Fram for 25+ years, and would share a lot of their technical specs. He took in a lot of complaints from the site and many of them were addressed in Fram's redesigns a few years back. Cases like that give a glimmer of hope for the site.

 

so my using 0-40 M1 cuz its cheap at wally world is a false economy when it breaks down so fast n early compared to better oils?

so who publishes specs on oil during usage after so many miles?

I could ask what is the best oil.....but thats to easy.....better yet......what oil do YOU use in your LS engine?

 

Its std volume. But the outlet flow doesnt get bottlenecked or restricted so more gets where its going plus less heat buildup and less artificial pressure buildup before even getting to the filter.

The better question is, when your engine doesnt need the volume, where does it go? Or where does the oil go after it gets to the rod and main bearings, cam bearings, and pushrods?

The answer is everywhere.

So a simple test is take a 1 gallon bucket of water and throw it against a wall. It makes a small splash. Now do the same with a 5 gallon bucket. Larger splash. Obviously over exaggerated but thats a simple idea of what happens when the rods and mains pass oil
It hits the side of the crank and fans out. The bigger the fan the more oil mist and the worse the pcv and oil burning issues. Match that with low tension oil rings and high mileage/bore/piston wear and its much worse.

Same with the pushrods. They then become the peter north of the top end. The only way you would ever need more volume is vvt/afm or a very very long oil cooler. If you have piston oil squirters then imagine all that black gold erupting like a geyser onto the piston and piston wall.

Maybe thats easier to picture.

 

M1 FS 0w-40 is still a great oil. It just should be looked at as a strong 30 grade rather than a 40 grade.

The specs on used can be found by sending in a sample for analysis. Blackstone labs is the most popular. I personally use Oil Analyzers Inc.

I use Driven LS30 5w-30 with a Fram Ultra XG9837 filter in my 5.3L. The LT1 gets Driven XP3 10w-30 since it's track only.

 

I thought the aliens laid the dinosaur eggs on top of the pyramids after seeing crop circles at Stone Hinge by the Illuminati ? Do I need to review Ancient Alien History Channel? On maybe the dinosaurs laid ancient alien eggs? In any case eggs are best over medium.

 

Im not saying it is aliens, but.... its aliens.

I run edge titanium 5-30

 

Polyalphaolefin, thank you for explaining the details. This is probably the most real information about oil I've seen in one spot. A new thread to discuss oil questions would be most appreciated.

There so many oil questions I like to see your comments on.

1. LS oil pump cavitation at 6,200 rpm and above.

2. Many newer engines call for Dexos or Dexos 2. I'm the older LS engines without DOD lifters, is any benefit from Dexos oil in reducing air bubbles in the oil?

3. How well does Mobile 1, 5w-30 Dexos 2 Synthetic hold up at 5,000 miles?

4. How well does Amsoil 5w-30 Synthetic hold up at 5,000 miles?

...and so on.

I typically run M1 5w-30 (LS engines) and Castrol SynTech/Titanium Edge 10w-40 (small block Chevy)

Will consider LS30 based on what's been shared for the LS's.