shane p

I dont know about freezing parts but im a tool and die maker and i heat treat steel and i know you cant do it to a finished part because the steel will bow and twist if it is a finished size and you are trying to hold a couple of thousandths tolerence it wont be any good. When your done, heat treat them, then finish the final machine work ,sure its harder and a bitch to work with ,but thats how it is also there is a process called strees relieving you heat the steel up to 1200f and hold it for 4 hours then let it cool in still air that gets all the streeses out of the material but i do work with extruded plastics with wood in it for man made synthetic wood for building we have found freezing like you guys are talking made the material alot more stronger and rigid my point is if it is finished tolerences and are moving molecules and grain structure that the whole part might be moving a couple of thousandths something to think about.

<small>[ March 23, 2003, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: shane p ]</small>

last of the Z28's

just ask walt disney? <img border="0" alt="[angel]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_angel.gif" />

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

Go for it. The cryo-treating helps with wear related issues. It can make parts stronger by eliminating heat stress that is cast into parts or occures whent they are machined.

There is also a high temp coating that can be applied to valve springs to help the springs disapate heat. Might want to check into that as well.

bdawg/98mechamta#9

And Ted Williams. <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" /> oooh thats bad.

10.5 Dave

iTrader: (5)

ARE is cyroing heads for my turbo buildup.Ive been told it will help with head flexing in high boost applications.I figure what the hell considering the total cost of combo its cheap insurance.

Skelton

I forgot valve springs on the earlier post. It's known to really help them last longer and with todays fast ramp cams, I would do it.

DaleMX

iTrader: (4)

Thanks J-ROD, Seems I always learn something here.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

The Pro Mod Nostalgia contact does not do it.

I will ask another Pro Mod contact on Monday.

I understand what the process should do, but I'd like a scientific link to prove this.

I know someone who did cryo some razor blades and they did not notice a difference in wear.

I'm on the fence like I am about piston coatings, I want some proof. I only hear about Top Fuel guys coating pistons but they only use those pistons for like 5 or less runs...

J-Rod

I know the guys at PolyDyn. All the racing series use their coatings.

If you go by there you can see stacks of boxes with the names of lots of Nascar shops waiting to go out....

I have a buddy who does Cryo also. It does change the material properties of the block. In most cases they treat the block before you finish machining it.

LS1derfull

PSJ Jrod is right about cryo-aging, it works.
I would definitely do rods. Any part that is exposed to stress or fatigue will benefit from this process. I plan on doing it on any build up that comes my way. I have used it on small block Chevy stuff and it makes a huge difference in strength and hardness of treated parts.

J-Rod

I know this, you can take machine tooling. Say a tip wear out in x ammount of time. If you treat it, it will go about 3 times as long before it wears out.

On blocks, after you cryo one, go bore an engine that has been treated and one that hasn't. The sound as the tip cut through the cylinder is totally different.

TanRchy

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> so can someone please explain it again, do you cryo "whatever" and then port it, or do you port the "whatever" and then cryo it? thnx. if thats confusing i can try to explain it again.lol. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

J'sRamAir

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by J-Rod:
<strong> I know this, you can take machine tooling. Say a tip wear out in x ammount of time. If you treat it, it will go about 3 times as long before it wears out.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I actually plan on doing this. I have some valvesprings I'm going to get done as well as my GStop rotors when they come in and some 4.10s if I decide to get them. I was going to throw some different sized end mills in there too to see if they last longer. I can tell much more easily if this cryo stuff is all it's cracked up to be based on wear of the end mills.

Camaroholic

iTrader: (1)

I was Googling for something completely unrelated, came across this. Interesting reading.

Just go ahead and cryo-dip the whole car. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

http://www.metal-wear.com/Articles/H...20Progress.pdf

-Andrew

verbs

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 1dirtyZ:
<strong> my local guy could do the whole engine for about $250.

if i was in your shoes , i'd freeze the whole engine.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dirty, you referring to NitrotechUSA? That's who I've always used. I had the entire engine in my old 3.4L V6 cryoed a while back before adding 15psi to it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> The thing lasted a lot longer than everyone told me it would I'll say that much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

PSJ, you should also look into nitrotechusa.com Ask for Jack; he's a great guy to deal with. He does a lot of work for race cars. His site is here: http://NITROTECHUSA.com

good luck!

<small>[ March 27, 2003, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: verbs ]</small>

J-Rod

Here is a blurb I thought might answer some of the questions...

Block
Treating the block and piston rings helps assure better ring sealing, which raises torque and increases engine life by reducing wear on the cylinder bores. Treating the block also reduces distortion of the block during machining and running. Blocks should be treated after all heavy machining is done and before final boring and honing. It is beneficial to treat both aluminum and cast iron blocks. Sleeved blocks and cylinders (for instance, Harley Davidson cylinders) should also be treated.
Valve Train
Cryogenic Processing reduces wear in the valve train. This assures the valve timing remains constant. One of our pickiest engine building customers tells us his valve lash does not change during break in when he uses cryo'd parts. Reed Cams agrees with him, as they offer cryogenic processing as an option on their camshafts and lifters. We see a lot less wear on solid lifters, and less breakage on roller lifters. Treatment of push rods changes the harmonics of their vibration, which helps prevent valve float. Our customers also report much longer rocker arm life. Treating the valves, guides, keepers, and retainers assures minimum wear in this area and minimum breakage, which results in reduced sticking and more accurate timing. Treating valve springs allows our customer much longer life. One Remax series racer changes springs once a year, where his competitors change theirs every other race. At $400.00 to buy a set of springs and $48.00 to cryo treat a set, you can see the economics. He consistently runs in the top ten.

Rotating Assembly
Cryo Processing reduces wear and breakage of crankshafts. Two major racing crankshaft makers cryo treat their products as part of the production process. Cryo treating cast crankshafts greatly reduces wear and breakage. Cryo treating bearings helps to increase their life and reduce instances of cracking. Connecting rods respond to cryo by an increase in life and toughness. Dyer's Top Rods cryogenically treats all of its connecting rods and is known for having one of the toughest rods in the market. Pistons resist detonation longer when treated, and also distort less in use. Piston pins wear less. Piston rings seal better, vibrate less, and last longer.

Other Engine Parts
Timing gears, timing chains, distributor gears and shafts all benefit from cryogenic processing. Cylinder heads resist detonation better. Valve seats wear less. Water pumps last longer. A recent test on alternators revealed that we can gain efficiency and life on this part.

Drive Train
Any stressed part of a drive train will respond to cryogenic processing. All gears (Jerico Performance Products has all its gears and shafts treated by Controlled Thermal.) Axles, ring and pinion, roller bearings, CV joints, and clutches all respond with beneficial affects of longer life and reduced breakage. One of our drag racing customers found both a longer clutch lining life and an increase in the coefficient of friction in cryogenically treated clutch parts. Their work was on an instrumented vehicle. Cryogenic processing is almost mandatory in tractor pulls and in drag racing of front wheel drive cars. A major European manufacturer of CV joints has confirmed through their research that there is a lot of life to be gained by cryogenic processing.

Chassis
Suspension springs and torsion bars both gain in life and do not lose their spring constant when treated. Sway bars live longer and remain more constant. Treating A arms and other links helps control vibration. Treatment of ball joints increases their life. We have more than one customer interested in treating an entire chassis. And of course, one of the most common parts of the chassis to treat is the brakes.


BTW the .pdf file above is a good article to read....

Old SStroker

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong> I have the opportunity to cryo engine parts locally, I have been planning to do that to the crankshaft...

As I understand it, they freeze it to -300F, and then heat it several times... Supposedly it will toughen the parts.

I can cryo my stock crank for about $135.

Anyone have any opinions?

What else would you consider cryoing at the same time, rods? pistons? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We are currently analyzing the micro-structure of a production LS1 crank to determine what heat treatment was done by GM. Results are not in yet.

Thoughts:

One of the primary advantages of sub-zero treatment, whether it be -120F or -300F is the conversion of retained austenite to martensite in the steel (or ductile iron) structure. Without getting too boring, a nearly 100% martensitic structure is preferred for strength over one with some untransformed austenite which occurs during heat treating. If there is 1-3% or so retained austenite, there won't be much gain, but if there were 2-3 time as much, you might expect more gains. We'll know more about LS1 cranks soon.

Anytime you cool or heat metal parts, especially over a 600F range, you may change size or configuration. I worry most about straightness of things like cranks and cams during post-machining heat treating.

Engine parts are not tool bits. The material, function and heat treatment are very different.

Before I'd cryo treat a block, I'd want to know how the cylinder bore structure and hardness changed because different structures require different surface conditions for best ring seal. What works for a normal gray cast iron isn't necessarily optimum for cylinder liners which were made and heat treated differently. I suspect the same thing with treated blocks.

If I were building an endurance engine (Winston Cup, etc), I'd do extensive testing of treated and untreated parts before I treated any of them, then pick and choose what helped. If I were building a street engine, I would be sure that the treatment was helping rather than hurting before I'd use it. IMO, this is especially true with cast, or PM, and subsequently heat-treated engine parts like cranks and rods.

All that being said, some sub-zero (around -120F) treatment is regularly used when making many parts. We produce many bearing rollers, and impact parts from high carbon, high chrome bearing steel which are always sub-zero treated. This is done before the finish machining/grinding operations, however.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Great posts!!!

So cryo the crank yes? And before balancing it then I take it?

BIGBOS

I was told I can get the crank nitrated for $250 bucks, what does that do compared to cryo freezing it?

shane p

nitride is a gas treatment that penitrates .02 thousandths or so deep into the surface and makes it a really hard surface about as hard as a file for matal dont really add any strength just makes surface really hard and since its a gas treatment it dont move as much as heat but it could and probably move not sure but it wouldnt work to good on cast parts works good on 4140 or 4340 steels