Is 500 HP possible on an LS1 or should I go with another engine?
06-16-2019, 11:15 AM
#201
If your interested in trying to tune it yourself. Look into HP tuners, you would also need a wideband. That said there is an awful lot of options and it can be quite confusing. Getting a cammed car to run right is probably hard but there is also a lot of information on this site.
06-16-2019, 06:57 PM
#202
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: My own internal universe
Posts: 10,452
Received 1,852 Likes
on
1,152 Posts
I really do think you made a good decision. If you have to pull heads, even if the lifter does no damage when it fails, gaskets, fluids, etc cost more than the lifters.
06-16-2019, 07:26 PM
#203
The gaskets are cheap compared to lifters, I just paid 420 shipped for my johnson drop ins, even non bulk ls7s are close to 200. I got GM MLS headgaskets off Amazon for 50 for the pair & Mahle MLS header gaskets for 18. A few gallons of coolant is 45, I personally ditched the Dexcool for Zerex G05 coolant system is much cleaner now.
06-17-2019, 12:38 PM
#204
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Iroc - Thanks for the info. Not that I'm planning on taking the heads off a lot, but I've just always heard that ARP bolts are worth the money. Plus, I'm guessing since they are studs that they aren't torque-to-yield, right? I don't know why, but I hate the TTY stuff. I don't understand why they didn't just keep the normal "torque to xxxx lb/ft" and that is that. LOL Just easier for me to comprehend instead of torque to this and then rotate it again 38.6* or whatever. LOL. Sorry, I guess I'm just being crabby about it. :-P
06-17-2019, 12:44 PM
#205
On The Tree
Thread Starter
If your interested in trying to tune it yourself. Look into HP tuners, you would also need a wideband. That said there is an awful lot of options and it can be quite confusing. Getting a cammed car to run right is probably hard but there is also a lot of information on this site.
But it does look like there was a few posts (initial GoogleFoo search) regarding tuning for either/both of those tuners, so that is a good thing. Plus, I like learning stuff like that. I never tuned a bike before I did my R1 and then I ended up doing my next three bikes, so I don't mind putting in the time to learn, as long as I can learn from a valuable/verifiable resource.
06-17-2019, 12:51 PM
#206
On The Tree
Thread Starter
The gaskets are cheap compared to lifters, I just paid 420 shipped for my johnson drop ins, even non bulk ls7s are close to 200. I got GM MLS headgaskets off Amazon for 50 for the pair & Mahle MLS header gaskets for 18. A few gallons of coolant is 45, I personally ditched the Dexcool for Zerex G05 coolant system is much cleaner now.
06-17-2019, 12:54 PM
#207
The LS6 and LS7 both rev'd to 7k with LS7 lifters....but they the debil. Of course there are more failures, because they've been used probably 100x-1000x times more than Johnson and Morel's. I agree that there are better choices, but it doesn't make the LS7 a bad choice unless the combo dictates a better choice.
06-18-2019, 12:09 PM
#208
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Spider - I can understand that and it makes sense. Obviously the more a certain brand/type is used, the more reported failures you will see/hear about them rather than the failures of the few that are used.
Like I said before, basically my budget (and a small touch of common sense, but don't count on that. LOL) will be dictating a lot of what I'm going to do. Of course I'd love to get the TrickFlow 200 "fast as cast" heads, but at $1750 (cheapest I've found for the pair) plus shipping isn't exactly budget friendly. However, then again, you get what you pay for (most times). I can understand the pricing for the heads, but the price of the FAST intake is still what makes me want to choke. I can only hope that, when I'm ready, I find a deal on one that is used and not screwed up.
Anyway, I understand your point and you never know. When I get to that point, it might be more in my budget to go with the LS7 lifters. Who knows. Right now, according to my build spreadsheet, I'm at about $9200 and that doesn't even count body work or paint. So, again, we'll see what goes. LOL! That's another reason I mentioned above about possibly getting tuning software and doing it myself. Cheaper for me to spend the money on that and time learning specifics of Camaro tuning and doing it myself than taking in to someone at $150-$200 a pop every time I change/adjust/do something that might need a touch up tune after the initial one. Or if I end up running an LS6 intake for the time being and then get a FAST one later and then having to retune, etc.
I don't know where all that just came out of...ooops. I derailed my own darn post. LOL!
Like I said before, basically my budget (and a small touch of common sense, but don't count on that. LOL) will be dictating a lot of what I'm going to do. Of course I'd love to get the TrickFlow 200 "fast as cast" heads, but at $1750 (cheapest I've found for the pair) plus shipping isn't exactly budget friendly. However, then again, you get what you pay for (most times). I can understand the pricing for the heads, but the price of the FAST intake is still what makes me want to choke. I can only hope that, when I'm ready, I find a deal on one that is used and not screwed up.
Anyway, I understand your point and you never know. When I get to that point, it might be more in my budget to go with the LS7 lifters. Who knows. Right now, according to my build spreadsheet, I'm at about $9200 and that doesn't even count body work or paint. So, again, we'll see what goes. LOL! That's another reason I mentioned above about possibly getting tuning software and doing it myself. Cheaper for me to spend the money on that and time learning specifics of Camaro tuning and doing it myself than taking in to someone at $150-$200 a pop every time I change/adjust/do something that might need a touch up tune after the initial one. Or if I end up running an LS6 intake for the time being and then get a FAST one later and then having to retune, etc.
I don't know where all that just came out of...ooops. I derailed my own darn post. LOL!
06-18-2019, 12:53 PM
#209
z28, if your goal is mid 11's you could just go with 243 heads (about 400) used and that cam you're considering and should crack mid 11's. I did low 12's with a LS6 intake stock heads stock cam and had no weight reduction except removing the spare tire and jack. I had a system in the car though which added weight.
You could likely hit mid 11's with that cam and a good intake manifold with the stock heads you have too.
If you did the trick flow heads, that cam, fast intake good headers and exhaust with a converter gears and weight reduction you're in the 10's
I'm sure the budget has got out of control so you could always start with a cam and higher stall converter and go from there. Those two things alone will completely transform the performance of the car. Of course you'd need a couple of the basics first too like a lid and filter and headers and good exhaust.
On the LS7's they work, but you'll have a little less loss of lift with a short travel lifter. Which equates to a little more power, especially with upgraded valve springs.
And the lifters are a bitch to get to so if you can spend a little extra on them it's nice to just do them once and know that you have the ones you're happy with. But a vast majority of builds here use a standard LS1 or LS7 lifter and do well. So it's whatever meets your goals and budget..
You could likely hit mid 11's with that cam and a good intake manifold with the stock heads you have too.
If you did the trick flow heads, that cam, fast intake good headers and exhaust with a converter gears and weight reduction you're in the 10's
I'm sure the budget has got out of control so you could always start with a cam and higher stall converter and go from there. Those two things alone will completely transform the performance of the car. Of course you'd need a couple of the basics first too like a lid and filter and headers and good exhaust.
On the LS7's they work, but you'll have a little less loss of lift with a short travel lifter. Which equates to a little more power, especially with upgraded valve springs.
And the lifters are a bitch to get to so if you can spend a little extra on them it's nice to just do them once and know that you have the ones you're happy with. But a vast majority of builds here use a standard LS1 or LS7 lifter and do well. So it's whatever meets your goals and budget..
Last edited by 00pooterSS; 06-18-2019 at 12:58 PM.
06-18-2019, 01:17 PM
#210
On The Tree
Thread Starter
z28, if your goal is mid 11's you could just go with 243 heads (about 400) used and that cam you're considering and should crack mid 11's. I did low 12's with a LS6 intake stock heads stock cam and had no weight reduction except removing the spare tire and jack. I had a system in the car though which added weight.
You could likely hit mid 11's with that cam and a good intake manifold with the stock heads you have too.
If you did the trick flow heads, that cam, fast intake good headers and exhaust with a converter gears and weight reduction you're in the 10's
You could likely hit mid 11's with that cam and a good intake manifold with the stock heads you have too.
If you did the trick flow heads, that cam, fast intake good headers and exhaust with a converter gears and weight reduction you're in the 10's
Wait a minute...I thought you couldn't put the 243 heads (LS3's, no?) on the LS1 stock block because the LS1 bores are too small. Or am I thinking of a different set of heads? I currently have the 853's which are supposedly like the 241's. Nothing really special unless you have them worked and even then, I'm sure they aren't even close to the Trick Flows
The car already has 1 7/8" headers on it and into a 3" Xpipe and dumps at the rear axle. I'm planning on adding the axle back true duals when I have the money only because I hate the exhaust smell in the car. I would add a converter now, but I don't see the point...meaning, if I'm taking the trans out once to rebuild it, I might as well just do the converter then, rather than pull the trans, put the converter in, then put it back and then later on pull the trans again to rebuild it. Plus, I don't want any old trans juice getting in the new shiny converter. LOL!!! :-P
I keep finding "new" things that the former owner did to my car. When I took the video to post, I found out he/she put on tubular lower rear control arms on the car. It also looks like they removed the "cruise" cable as well because it isn't connected to my TB and I don't see it "hanging" anywhere (and the cruise doesn't work when I try and activate it). It is possible that they put in rear gears and I just don't know it yet. I'm going to try and check that this weekend by marking the tires and marking the driveshaft to see if I can tell if it truly still has the stock 3.23 gears in it or not.
So, some of the stuff I was budgeting for may already be on the car, so that helps me out too.
I usually get two $3100 bonuses a year, one in late Sept/early Oct and one in mid Feb/early March. That's what I'm planning on using for the "big stuff" (i.e. heads, intake, cam, etc.) Fingers crossed, this Oct I'll be able to get the heads, intake and cam and then work on putting them in. But in reality, if I do that, then I need at least the converter to just drive it...soooooo....I don't know what I'm going to do yet. Maybe I'll get the converter, heads and cam and wait on the intake. Then again, I want to build the trans and put in the converter together. Man this sucks. LOL! Even though it will be winter, I don't really want to buy the parts and just let the car sit there until spring when I can get the rest of what I need for the trans to make it drivable. I don't have a garage, so all this crap I do with the car has to be done on non-rainy days outside. That's the part that truly sucks! Then again, maybe it will make sense to pull the trans, rebuild it and add the 3800 converter and such first. However, driving the stock LS1 with a 3800 converter will probably be really weird. LOL!Plus, on top of all that, I actually want to pull the engine so I can clean up and respray the engine bay. If I'm changing paint colors, that would be the time to spray the engine bay down in the new Bright Purple Metallic paint (as well as painting the engine block before putting it back in). This way when I go to have the car painted at the very end, I don't have to worry about that part, they would just have to do the rest of the car.
Sigh...sooooo many options! LOL
06-18-2019, 02:30 PM
#211
Spider - I can understand that and it makes sense. Obviously the more a certain brand/type is used, the more reported failures you will see/hear about them rather than the failures of the few that are used.
Like I said before, basically my budget (and a small touch of common sense, but don't count on that. LOL) will be dictating a lot of what I'm going to do. Of course I'd love to get the TrickFlow 200 "fast as cast" heads, but at $1750 (cheapest I've found for the pair) plus shipping isn't exactly budget friendly. However, then again, you get what you pay for (most times). I can understand the pricing for the heads, but the price of the FAST intake is still what makes me want to choke. I can only hope that, when I'm ready, I find a deal on one that is used and not screwed up.
Anyway, I understand your point and you never know. When I get to that point, it might be more in my budget to go with the LS7 lifters. Who knows. Right now, according to my build spreadsheet, I'm at about $9200 and that doesn't even count body work or paint. So, again, we'll see what goes. LOL! That's another reason I mentioned above about possibly getting tuning software and doing it myself. Cheaper for me to spend the money on that and time learning specifics of Camaro tuning and doing it myself than taking in to someone at $150-$200 a pop every time I change/adjust/do something that might need a touch up tune after the initial one. Or if I end up running an LS6 intake for the time being and then get a FAST one later and then having to retune, etc.
I don't know where all that just came out of...ooops. I derailed my own darn post. LOL!
Like I said before, basically my budget (and a small touch of common sense, but don't count on that. LOL) will be dictating a lot of what I'm going to do. Of course I'd love to get the TrickFlow 200 "fast as cast" heads, but at $1750 (cheapest I've found for the pair) plus shipping isn't exactly budget friendly. However, then again, you get what you pay for (most times). I can understand the pricing for the heads, but the price of the FAST intake is still what makes me want to choke. I can only hope that, when I'm ready, I find a deal on one that is used and not screwed up.
Anyway, I understand your point and you never know. When I get to that point, it might be more in my budget to go with the LS7 lifters. Who knows. Right now, according to my build spreadsheet, I'm at about $9200 and that doesn't even count body work or paint. So, again, we'll see what goes. LOL! That's another reason I mentioned above about possibly getting tuning software and doing it myself. Cheaper for me to spend the money on that and time learning specifics of Camaro tuning and doing it myself than taking in to someone at $150-$200 a pop every time I change/adjust/do something that might need a touch up tune after the initial one. Or if I end up running an LS6 intake for the time being and then get a FAST one later and then having to retune, etc.
I don't know where all that just came out of...ooops. I derailed my own darn post. LOL!
06-18-2019, 05:15 PM
#213
All sounds good.
As for the 243's, those are LS6 heads. There are 243 truck heads and 243 LS6 Z06 heads etc. The difference is the valves. The Z06 heads have lightweight valves that are right around .025" longer, so you need to account for that in your pushrod length if you get LS6 Z06 243's. 243's also came on gto's and other vettes and trucks etc.. But again, only Z06 243's have the lightweight and longer valves.
The LS3 heads are rectangle port and part number 821
As for the 243's, those are LS6 heads. There are 243 truck heads and 243 LS6 Z06 heads etc. The difference is the valves. The Z06 heads have lightweight valves that are right around .025" longer, so you need to account for that in your pushrod length if you get LS6 Z06 243's. 243's also came on gto's and other vettes and trucks etc.. But again, only Z06 243's have the lightweight and longer valves.
The LS3 heads are rectangle port and part number 821
06-18-2019, 09:38 PM
#215
TECH Resident
243/799 heads with a full cnc job can match most of the as cast heads at the level you're looking for. You just won't have any room left to go further with them. The as cast has room to grow later, but it also comes with a higher price tag. It's really just a matter of deciding if you'll be happy with a quick car or if you're the type who always wants to get a little quicker.
06-18-2019, 10:45 PM
#218
Oh, don't get me wrong...I want to go faster than mid-11's. I'm just afraid of basically indicating on my build or to people that I'm hoping to hit high 10's and then I do my build and end up in the 12's. LOL!!!! My true and honest goal is to hit 10.99 or faster. I truly would love to do that, but I'm also trying to be realistic on the budget that I'll eventually have. So, that is why I keep saying mid-11's...trying to be safe. Plus, if that is my thought in my mind and I end up hitting low 11's or even very high 10's, I'll be thrilled as ****! LOL! So, I'm trying to underestimate more for my sanity than anything. ;-)
Wait a minute...I thought you couldn't put the 243 heads (LS3's, no?) on the LS1 stock block because the LS1 bores are too small. Or am I thinking of a different set of heads? I currently have the 853's which are supposedly like the 241's. Nothing really special unless you have them worked and even then, I'm sure they aren't even close to the Trick Flows
The car already has 1 7/8" headers on it and into a 3" Xpipe and dumps at the rear axle. I'm planning on adding the axle back true duals when I have the money only because I hate the exhaust smell in the car. I would add a converter now, but I don't see the point...meaning, if I'm taking the trans out once to rebuild it, I might as well just do the converter then, rather than pull the trans, put the converter in, then put it back and then later on pull the trans again to rebuild it. Plus, I don't want any old trans juice getting in the new shiny converter. LOL!!! :-P
I keep finding "new" things that the former owner did to my car. When I took the video to post, I found out he/she put on tubular lower rear control arms on the car. It also looks like they removed the "cruise" cable as well because it isn't connected to my TB and I don't see it "hanging" anywhere (and the cruise doesn't work when I try and activate it). It is possible that they put in rear gears and I just don't know it yet. I'm going to try and check that this weekend by marking the tires and marking the driveshaft to see if I can tell if it truly still has the stock 3.23 gears in it or not.
So, some of the stuff I was budgeting for may already be on the car, so that helps me out too. I usually get two $3100 bonuses a year, one in late Sept/early Oct and one in mid Feb/early March. That's what I'm planning on using for the "big stuff" (i.e. heads, intake, cam, etc.) Fingers crossed, this Oct I'll be able to get the heads, intake and cam and then work on putting them in. But in reality, if I do that, then I need at least the converter to just drive it...soooooo....I don't know what I'm going to do yet. Maybe I'll get the converter, heads and cam and wait on the intake. Then again, I want to build the trans and put in the converter together. Man this sucks. LOL! Even though it will be winter, I don't really want to buy the parts and just let the car sit there until spring when I can get the rest of what I need for the trans to make it drivable. I don't have a garage, so all this crap I do with the car has to be done on non-rainy days outside. That's the part that truly sucks! Then again, maybe it will make sense to pull the trans, rebuild it and add the 3800 converter and such first. However, driving the stock LS1 with a 3800 converter will probably be really weird. LOL!
Plus, on top of all that, I actually want to pull the engine so I can clean up and respray the engine bay. If I'm changing paint colors, that would be the time to spray the engine bay down in the new Bright Purple Metallic paint (as well as painting the engine block before putting it back in). This way when I go to have the car painted at the very end, I don't have to worry about that part, they would just have to do the rest of the car.
Sigh...sooooo many options! LOL
Wait a minute...I thought you couldn't put the 243 heads (LS3's, no?) on the LS1 stock block because the LS1 bores are too small. Or am I thinking of a different set of heads? I currently have the 853's which are supposedly like the 241's. Nothing really special unless you have them worked and even then, I'm sure they aren't even close to the Trick Flows
The car already has 1 7/8" headers on it and into a 3" Xpipe and dumps at the rear axle. I'm planning on adding the axle back true duals when I have the money only because I hate the exhaust smell in the car. I would add a converter now, but I don't see the point...meaning, if I'm taking the trans out once to rebuild it, I might as well just do the converter then, rather than pull the trans, put the converter in, then put it back and then later on pull the trans again to rebuild it. Plus, I don't want any old trans juice getting in the new shiny converter. LOL!!! :-P
I keep finding "new" things that the former owner did to my car. When I took the video to post, I found out he/she put on tubular lower rear control arms on the car. It also looks like they removed the "cruise" cable as well because it isn't connected to my TB and I don't see it "hanging" anywhere (and the cruise doesn't work when I try and activate it). It is possible that they put in rear gears and I just don't know it yet. I'm going to try and check that this weekend by marking the tires and marking the driveshaft to see if I can tell if it truly still has the stock 3.23 gears in it or not.
So, some of the stuff I was budgeting for may already be on the car, so that helps me out too.
I usually get two $3100 bonuses a year, one in late Sept/early Oct and one in mid Feb/early March. That's what I'm planning on using for the "big stuff" (i.e. heads, intake, cam, etc.) Fingers crossed, this Oct I'll be able to get the heads, intake and cam and then work on putting them in. But in reality, if I do that, then I need at least the converter to just drive it...soooooo....I don't know what I'm going to do yet. Maybe I'll get the converter, heads and cam and wait on the intake. Then again, I want to build the trans and put in the converter together. Man this sucks. LOL! Even though it will be winter, I don't really want to buy the parts and just let the car sit there until spring when I can get the rest of what I need for the trans to make it drivable. I don't have a garage, so all this crap I do with the car has to be done on non-rainy days outside. That's the part that truly sucks! Then again, maybe it will make sense to pull the trans, rebuild it and add the 3800 converter and such first. However, driving the stock LS1 with a 3800 converter will probably be really weird. LOL!Plus, on top of all that, I actually want to pull the engine so I can clean up and respray the engine bay. If I'm changing paint colors, that would be the time to spray the engine bay down in the new Bright Purple Metallic paint (as well as painting the engine block before putting it back in). This way when I go to have the car painted at the very end, I don't have to worry about that part, they would just have to do the rest of the car.
Sigh...sooooo many options! LOL
Take a look at what StockA4 has achieved with very little, hes even on stock suspension and full weight https://ls1tech.com/forums/11-second...l#post20102407
06-19-2019, 05:13 PM
#219
Didn't know that, thanks for the info man
Agree, the aftermarket head will have a higher ceiling. And that the 243's ported (with bowl work and multi angle valve job) would also be killer
Agreed. I did 12.3's (sorry if I'm repeating myself) with less. I had 3.73 built trans ss3800 LS6 intake stock crap LS1 heads and full weight+
LOL the hot rodders curse
243/799 heads with a full cnc job can match most of the as cast heads at the level you're looking for. You just won't have any room left to go further with them. The as cast has room to grow later, but it also comes with a higher price tag. It's really just a matter of deciding if you'll be happy with a quick car or if you're the type who always wants to get a little quicker.
LOL the hot rodders curse
06-19-2019, 05:20 PM
#220
TECH Junkie
Imo he should go with his last draft of parts. He will be very happy with it.
