00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Screw a Y pipe setup. You can make them flow but not many are that great without cutting them up and replacing the merge with a better merge. The hooker black heart cat back is dual 2.5" and sounds awesome and people say it tucks up as good or better than stock exhaust. You could run their headers too if you want a fully matching system that all works together.

Headers that are great and not very expensive
Pacesetter (for many years these were the favorite for 4th get F body cars)
Texas speed
Speed engineering. I have speed engineering on my truck and they are fan-f'ing-tastic considering the price. I've seen where guys bitch about flashing on the welds on 1500 headers, these $400 headers don't have that issue surprisingly.

On the stall... Picture the the LS as a high revving motor, it's happier up high in the rpm and around 3600-4000 is the long standing sweet spot for LS1 cars that are used for daily/track duty. GET A GOOD STALL. Don't cheap out here and get a TCI. Get a Yank or a Circle D is my preference. I used to tear up a buddy down the highway that had a tci stall, his car was cammed and gutted too. Mine was stock long block and full weight. The stall efficiency made a difference, I had a $800 yank, he had a $400 tci

The rod bolts in the LS1 will tolerate right around 7000 rpm, so will the 4L60 trans. Get a cam that is mild in size and the car will be blast and wont need to be shifted over 7k

I ran my 2000 SS to 6900 rpm for years and I drove the absolute dog **** out of that car. Once it crossed 160k we set the rev limiter at 6800, I sold the car at 191k and the engine was in excellent shape when the car was totalled with over 220k. That engine had seen over 6k pretty much every day from the time I bought at 131k until after I sold it when it had well over 200k

I did a top end setup on a friends car once. It had Trick Flow as cast 220 heads (amazing heads for a LS1 and $1700 new) straight out of the box with a FAST 92 intake and throttle body. Had texas speed long tube headers and texas speed true dual exhaust. Had a texas speed torquer v3 cam. Had a 3600 Yank stall I think and a little weight reduction (tubular front suspension and tubular front bumper support) and it ran 6.8's off the trailer first pass with that setup. That's upper 10's. Used the OEM rocker arms and stands on it. Nothing too fancy of a setup. Had a 10 bolt in it too. That's another thing, a 10 bolt can live behind an auto and run 10's. That's really hard to do with a 6 speed stick car.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

I've always wondered if there is actually and increase in flow with a high volume pump since the oil flow is restricted by the bearing clearances. If it's pushed at higher pressure it may flow more but I wonder about high volume and if it actually flows more. You would think that if more volume were being pushed the pressure would go up since the pressure is a measure of resistance to flow.

98CayenneT/A

I was at .040" intake and .060" exhaust

With un-milled heads and stock head gasket (.050") I would have been around .070" intake and. 090" exhaust for my ptv clearance

bammax

A high volume pump can move the oil to the top of the engine quicker than it can work its way back to the pan. Since a street car doesn't see extended high rpm runs or high g turns it's not that dangerous, but also doesn't provide any real benefit. If you like high rpms or high g corners you can run the pan partially dry which is never a good thing. The standard fix is to run extra oil in the pan, but that can rob horsepower if it's contacting the crank at any time as it creates resistance for the crank to move through. The more thorough fix is to enlarge the oil return holes and run an oil pan baffle setup or a race oriented oil pan. That's a good bit of time and money just for a little more volume that you probably don't need. On a stock block the melling high pressure is what the majority go for just to keep the high temp low rpm pressure at a nice place.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

What he said ^^

Z28_Demon

Cool. Thanks for the info on the oil pump situation. It makes sense. I’m not doing any autocross or anything like that with the car. Just a drive it now and again for fun car and take it to the drag strip every now and again. So I don’t need anything super fancy. I’d like to at least get 500+ crank HP out of it. I don’t think I have the money to get 500+ RWHP from my LS1. Or it would take me years to get there by saving up the money just for some of the parts.

So I’m hoping to keep the bottom end stock and leave it alone (as most have suggested), figure out what heads I should shoot for and maybe match some heads to the cam that Cayenne is using (Polluter v2?). Looks like he said with no milling of the heads and a stock head gasket I should have enough room to run that cam (0.070-0.090” PTV clearance). I just love how wicked it sounds in the videos. Especially the lope.

I’m also not sure what type of intake to run yet (I know it mainly depends on the heads) or the size of the TB. I’m also not sure if I can use the factory fuel rails and just put in bigger injectors or what yet.

About the only thing I seem to have sorted out from this thread so far is I’ll rebuild either my 4L60E or another one if I can get one cheap. Then consider a 3600-4000 stall from Yank or CircleD.

I will go with 1 7/8” headers but not sure after that. I honestly don’t want it obnoxiously loud but I also want some good lope so it sounds mean. I was thinking true duals but I don’t really know if I want them dumping at the axle due to droning and fumes in the car. The Texas Speed over the axle duals looked decent but I’ve read about fitment issues. Plus it doesn’t have any type of cutout in them for “race day”.

Id like to put some 3.73 rear gears in the rear end, if it will hold up. If not, then I don’t know what I’ll do yet. I don’t have $3-5k just to throw into a rear end. I wish I did!

My my point is, I’ll probably have to settle for 500 crank HP because I don’t have 10K to drop into the engine and heads like I have seen on some of the awesome builds on here. That is why I’m trying to get info on what others have done to see what I can afford to do with my “plain ole factory 346ci LS1”. LOL! I also don’t want to build a slug either. LOL!

bammax

If you really want alot of usable power stop worrying about the sound. The choppy noise from back in the day is generally going to cost you power. You want everything to be as efficient as possible to get the most out of it. Smooth flow in and out with good velocity and as little reversion as possible should be the goal.

First homework assignment is to figure out exactly where you want your powerband to be. Tons of hp at high rpms can be loads of fun and gives a good dyno number, but if it's a street car the fun doesn't last long since you'll almost never get the rpms up high enough to tap into the power. Low rpm torque is fun since you can launch from every stop sign and traffic light, but on the strip it's going to be slower on a quarter mile and your dyno number won't be as showy. Knowing where you want the power will decide virtually every part of the build.

Z28_Demon

Bammax - Makes sense. This is where I'm going to have a fairly difficult decision. If it was a normal daily driver, then I would probably want most all the power down low, as you mentioned, for stop light to stop light. However, then again, I also don't want it to be a "drag only" car where everything is way up top. Sigh. I guess the answer I would give is "in the middle", but that is probably like having your cake and eating it too. LOL!

I guess I'm just too old school and hooked on having it "sound mean". Then again, that won't do crap for me if someone is able to leave me sitting at the start line and they are down the track as quiet as a mouse, eh? LOL Now, with that being said, I probably want to limit my rpm range at 7000 since I'll be leaving the LS1 bottom end stock as it sits now. So, I'm guessing that means, it would probably be best to have the powerband from around 3000 to 6500 or so? Then shifting at just about 7000 when the power starts to fall off. Plus, I think that range should also help me with a 3600-4000 stall as well on the 4L60E. This way I'll be just into the powerband when the stall is fully engaged.

So, if that sounds reasonable, now I'll need to find a cam and head combo that would allow me to create the power in that range and then find an intake and TB to match the cam/head combo once that is chosen. Thoughts on that?

I hope that sounds more reasonable now than just guessing at stuff. LOL I swear, I feel like such a newbie with these LS engines. They seem so different to me than the SBC/BBC's of "yesteryear". :-/ Not like I was some awesome engine builder back then or anything, but I didn't think I was half bad. However compared to all of the very knowledgeable people here, I feel like a kid who is just learning again. LOL

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

You wont need a cutout with true duals unless you just want it screaming *** loud. The point of going duals is having plenty of flow so you wont need to add cutouts etc to get all the power.

You don't have to do a massive cam to sound good. You can get that lope you want and use a reasonable cam. Yes the stall will help immensely with low end so even if you do a big cam the stall will make up for it. However, the biggest cam doesn't make the fastest car. The car with the most usable average power throughout the curve is faster.

I would look at cams with an upper 22x intake duration and around mid 23x exh duration. 112 ish LSA 600-610 ish lift



This cam on a 112 would chop good and hit the converter real hard and pull well up to 7k
https://www.texas-speed.com/p-5309-t...-camshaft.aspx

The cam motion titan cams are nice too. This stage 4 would do great like the above cam
http://www.cammotion.com/camshafts/t...227-232-113-4/



Here's a sound clip of the titan 4. The TSP cam should chop a tiny bit harder since it's a 112 LSA with similar durations on int and exh

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

Something else that helps make up for low end torque is rear gear. With an auto run a 4000 stall and a 3.73 gear. You can get away with more duration that way.

If you look at the cams that hit 500 rwhp in a 5.7, they are routinely high 230 intake and low 240 exhaust. Both mine and PatG were 237/24x

Utinator

Yes, that's what I did. It does require some special wiring. There is a wire harness out there that just plugs in. I believe there is a way to either re-pin or re-wire it, but the wire harness is much easier. You do have to move/remove a small section of the body to make room for the plug though (see photo below) It is also necessary to add an extra trans-fluid cooler with a high stall converter. I would do that with a 4L60 too. The 4L80 also requires a different transmission cross member. I got mine from BMR.

Honestly, if you're not going to boost it, I don't think the 4L80 is really necessary. I have seen 10 sec. Gen-4 Camaros running a 4L60e behind a Pro-Charger. The 4L60 would have to be built "right" to hold that kind of power though.

Z28_Demon

Pooter - Thank you for the info and the links to the cams. I have them saved. The Titan IV sounded pretty good and wasn't super loud. I wonder what exhaust setup was being run? I guess I was thinking of the cutouts for the track days, but if it is a true dual then I guess it should flow well enough on its own without the cutouts as you mentioned. Do you guys consider true duals only dumping at the rear axle or also the ones that go over the axle and exit the rear bumper? I know Texas Speed and Speed Engineering both have a decently priced "over the axle" true dual setup that I have been considering. However, others have mentioned in reviews that it is super loud and I think even one YouTube video I saw with the SE brand was super loud. I'm really not sure I want to go that loud. On a track day, fine, but just for a drive, not really. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I'm too old to be annoying people with a super loud exhaust. LOL! :-P

Darth - Totally understand about the high stall and rear gear. I already planned on putting 3.73's in it since I'm staying with the auto, so that will be done for sure. I was looking at the Yank converters (3600-4000 or so) and darn they are expensive. :-o However, that is what most everyone here has recommended (or CircleD, I haven't checked them out yet), so I'll be looking into that range for a higher stall for the 4L60E that I'll rebuild. I'm also just starting to go through your build on your sig. Tons of pages on that thread, so it is going to take me a long while to look through it all. LOL! I was also wondering about what you said regarding the cam duration with a higher stall converter. I noticed that the Tick Polluter V2 (the one Cayenne is running) is 239/244, but the lift seems very high to me at .635" & .610". I already know with a bigger cam like that that I will have to run a dual spring setup, especially with a very (to me) high lift like .635". I read on the cam sticky here that they suggest 0.060" "overlap" so there is no coil bind. That means with that Polluter V2 cam I'd have to run springs that could handle pretty much 0.700". :-o I'm afraid that is where it will end up going into the "super expensive" side of things. :-( How was your car to drive with your cam in it that you put in with the 237/24x duration? Was it streetable at all or only for the track? I don't mind it being a bit of a challenge on the street and I'm sure it will be to a degree with a high stall like 3600-4000 anyway, so why not get a cam that would compliment that stall, right?

Utinator - Thanks a bunch for the 4L80E info and pics. I really appreciate it. Looks like I'll probably just stick with a built up 4L60E. This way it is a fairly easy swap (either a used one that I've built or rebuilding and replacing the stock one from the car) and I won't have to buy extra crossmembers and all that jazz. But again, I appreciate the info. All of this info is helping me narrow down my choices. Also, I'm guessing that the trans cooler would mount in front of the radiator? I also take it that you just bypass the cooler fittings in the radiator and go directly to the trans cooler itself, ya? That's what I did in my 69 Chevelle and 83 Grand Prix when I had them and put in a B&M trans cooler. I really haven't dug into my engine bay as of yet to be honest. I've had a ton of other stuff going on and it's been hot and muggy out here already (either that or it's storming) so I haven't wanted to just open up the hood and look around for a while to see what goes where on the 4th Gens. LOL

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

"Streetable" is subjective. Mine was a manual with a light clutch and that cam, and I could drive it. It's cliche to say it's all in the tune, but much of it is -- keeping it from stalling, minimizing bucking, etc. There are people that do not consider a 227/23x cam streetable

I could drive it daily. Parking lots were about the worst. That and the 1/2 mile driveway at work limited to 15mph in a cammed stick shift wasn't easy. Most of the guys I've talked to say that a converter helps tame the cam to some degree vs a stick. But it's still going to fight you below about 1400 rpm. I found that it was best to just drive it hard. Trying to soft foot it always did the worst. Just going ahead and launching the car was fine for me.

Overall, I would say the spooled rear end I temporarily had was worse to deal with than the cam. I ended up going to a wavetrac to correct that. Maybe that gives you a reference for the word streetable.

ragtopz28

iTrader: (57)

-" Due to my setup you need a converter to match the power range and not everyone would be fine with driving my converter around. As you see in the video my shift extensions only drop to around 6300 rpms keeping it right in the wheel house of power band.

I absolutely love my setup but I do not drive it every day and I have a VERY good tuner."

You sir DO like loose converters, haha! How long did you run that PT4000 I sold you? and then went to a PT4400!!

98CayenneT/A

I ran the Pt4000 for one season. I didn't buy this converter from you. It was originally a ss3600 then after I changed setups and cracked the forward apply piston in my transmission I had it restalled to a pt4000. At the end of the season I ended up blowing the tabs out of the input drum that hold the 3-4 clutch pack in so I had the converter restalled again to match my setup better. I figure I'm probably peeking around 6,800 - 6,900 rpms so wanted a bit higher shift extensions which are around 6300 now and match my setup much better. If I had to guess, when I had it restalled to a pt4400 they may have over shot it a tit which I am more than fine with.

bortous

If you want that LS1 to make power and rev hard you will need to rebuild it and also stroke it with a new bottom end.
One thing with the LS1 platform these engines did not like revving quickly.
They take time to wind up. I'm guessing it may be the internal mass inside the engine slowing it down.
This was fixed in the LS2 which was much more rev happy and responsive.
So rebuild the LS1, get yourself some CNC 243 (LS2 heads)
a fast 102mm intake and fit a 232/242 114 LSA +3 camshaft and you will exceed your power goals.

mintws6

My 232/236 .600/.600 114 +4 advance cam sounds mean has great torque and drives like stock. Pat G tuned my car its a M6 even going 20mph in my neighborhood it cruises. That's with a monster stage 3 single disc puck style clutch. I daily drive the car it made 380 Tq at 3400rpm on mustang dyno making 417tq at 5200rpm. Fun car to drive. 421 hp at 5600 rpm carries to 6400rpm..... no idea how much hp at the crank that translates to as it was on a mustang dyno and those things read low. I need to upgrade from the stock LS6 intake manifold.....

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Call me old then too cause I can't stand a screaming *** loud setup anymore myself. Yes duals are typically pretty loud, but so are single setups. Setups that flow are loud by nature. They can all be tamed though. One thing I like about duals is a x pipe is usually used and that helps tame some of the rasp that you generally get with a y pipe and that alone tames the exhaust note itself. The speed engineering setup is loud, it has some tiny mufflers, you could go to larger mufflers or install bigger ones and resonators. Cutouts with quiet cat backs do work so that you can have that quiet cruiser and loud drag strip car. But getting to near 500 with a single 3" catback is hard. You really need the duals to help you reach your goal. Unless you do a dual 3" to single 4" setup. Mufflex sells a single 4", or used to if they don't anymore.

Youtube hooker blackheart. They are dual 2.5" which is a little smaller than most of the dual setups out there but the larger the pipe usually the louder the setup. Dual 2.5" will far outflow a single 3" though so it's still a good setup and from what I gather it's not very loud until you stomp on it.

Running cats may eat a couple of horsepower but those also help keep sound levels in check.

Yank stalls are high, so are circle D. But you get what you pay for here man.. You can save some money in a few places and still make great power, like the headers, you'll probably make within a couple of horsepower with speed engineering headers vs kooks, and save about a grand.

wannafbody

iTrader: (2)

I have the BTR stage 2 which is similar to the Cam Motion Titan 4 in a M6 car. As darth said, too easy letting the clutch out and the car wants to stall. Giving it just the right amount of gas pedal gets it moving out without chatter. I can drive mine on the interstate at 1200 rpm in 6th. Car drives pretty much like stock except for driving in a parking lot in first gear or in a cruise lane.

SRT8.Acelleration

Really, let's get real.. first you need to know how a air pump works. 2nd you need to know your rpm/power range you want to be in, this is done by gears, trans, heads, intake, cam, weight. All this cookie cutter crap is all BS. With 3.23 gears your not serious about 1/4 mile unless your NOS/turbo. Start with gears 3.73 to 3.91, keep the 60e and build it, circle D 3300-4000 Stall, TEA stage 2 heads, 102 intake and TB, cam around 226 or higher at 50, LTH 2 1/2 to 3" TD, rocker arm upgrade, weight reduction, sticky tires.. if you don't have 5k to spend then just add headers and leave it alone . It's a complete package if your serious and takes $_$_