I am sure we are splitting hairs between these heads. Tsp uses a higher grade bronze for their guides allowing for more durability with OE rockers. They also said that we do not need to do any further work on the head for it is optimized for peak performance as is. In other words, it's an aftermarket fully done up head without polishing designed for a wide range of applications. (Imo possibly designed to just barely not self compete with their own 237/227 heads) Whenever I talked to a shop about 220 tfs heads, I was told to just port ls6 heads I had laying around because they would make nearly the same power et wise and cost less. (Talking 220s here) I was told tfs heads could be improved upon out the box. Never heard of that with an afr/tsp head...idk I'm sure they are both great. You'd have to swap from one to the other and run it at the track to get your answer. I dont have money or time to do that.

 

There were so many people since 08 i can remember and after sending their afr. Most of their castings still use/d stock valve angle also which is basically a std feature on most heads now.
Tsp nearly exclusively uses CHE bronze guides afaik

The do have an as cast 220 with cnc chamber
Cnc 220 and then as cast 225 with 13* so extensive options for under 2k.

 

Probably accurate on splittin hairs. I'd like to say though that I put a set of TFS as cast 220s on a car and a FAST 92mm intake and 92mm throttle body. Had an LS6 intake and stock LS1 heads, cant remember which casting number (lets assume they were not 243 heads). Went from 7.4x to 6.8x at the track with no other changes. Those were out of the box stock TFS 220s, no touch up, no milling no nothing. I would venture to say the TFS are as good or better out of the box than ported 243's and for sure have a higher hp ceiling. If you buy 243s and have them ported they are very close to the same cost as just buying trick flows, if not more expensive, considering the trick flows come with new springs and valves and the 243s you buy may need 1 or both.. really the 243s would be more expensive by the time you pay to have valves checked, lapped, deck surface inspected/cut to get them in the same shape the trick flows are when new.



Tech@ws6 store, what caused the tuliped valve? If the TSP head had been on there would the valve that comes in it be able to handle the same thing that tulip'd the valve in the TFS? How do we know for sure btw if it would have handled it..?

 

Pooter... lets not forget even Mast had a serious valve problem once... remember?

 

In an effort to retain “tech” here, and not have this turned into a casting contest, a valve that has tuliped is usually caused from either a poor tune, meaning too much timing causing too high a combustion temp, or a improperly setup pushrod length, being a tad too long (too little lash) which won’t allow the valve to contact the seat properly...which is the only cooling the valve sees btw...
Too much valve spring can also be a factor, although I don’t think it’s a root cause, and would easily show up by inspecting the valve/seat face for damage, meaning the valve was trying to beat the seat into the head, again not likely.
Number one cause is 9 times out of 10 being too much heat in the chamber, which usually points toward the tune and overall setup/combination of the engine...compression, fuel, spark plug, timing, etc...

 

Actual tech on LS1Tech? For shame!

Quick question though -- pushrods too long usually means too much preload or not enough lash, correct?

 

Correct sir. I misspoke that. I shall edit thy post. Good catch

 

I also remember quite a few PRC's having issues. It happens. But no company is above human error, and I have a really good feeling those tuliped valves didn't tulip themselves.

That's exactly what I was alluding to with the last sentence of my last post. Great tech in there.



I still wanna know if someone thinks the TSP valves are superior to where they wouldn't have had the same issue had they been on the same setup. Could be a determining factor for a guy shopping heads.

 

They have had multiple issues. This isn't an isolated incident with a bad batch of valves. This is intentionally using them then not saying anything.
Also this is on every 255 tfs head and maybe others. They dont address it and they dont say anything about it. Its not a valve failure issue from a abd batch, they are just using an obviously weaker valve. Every head.

The boost pressure is whats causing the valve to tulip. Thats why you have to switch to the different valve allot in the Manley severe duty.

I looked back on my emails and for 2 years every single time i was asked for a head recommendation or on here it was always tfs. ALWAYS. Now i am more hesitant to use them.

 

The prc heads dont have that issue. How do i know? How many guys running 20+lbs on their 5.3 2.5 heads? How many on their new 220 head? Ruby the Corvette is an excellent example there. And leroy ran their 237cc heads to break the stick box record. The ls3 heads have seen some serious steam also. They had valve issues from bad batches of valves, but that was all stem wear, which is usually the most common issue with valves. Definitely not tulipping. And 2 customers in a row that i recommend the tfs ls3 heads to did this on 20-26lbs. Even stock heads dont have that issue.
Again reference near verbatim what the tfs tech guy told me. Over 15lbs. With the era of turbo everything, nobody runs that anymore really.
Have they changed their valve style since then? Maybe. Am i going to find out and test it on a customer? No. They deserve better.

 

Ws6, Any issues with tsp hollowstem valves? (Not even quite sure who they use for valves)

 

No issues with anything for the past year there. Others may but from what ive seen and hear, nothing.

No issues with our leadfoot valves either ;-)

 

Thanks for the info I was interested in your experience with the issue.

However, EVERY tfs 225 head? EVERY ONE? Never heard of it, if that were true it would spread like wild fire.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it isn't because of boost pressure. Boost pressure is completely and totally irrelevant. This is going to be about heat in the cylinder, cylinder pressure, heat in the valve, the valve material, and spring strength etc. I said boost is irrelevant because it is measure of restriction at the valves, it doesn't necessarily dictate cylinder psi or heat. Too many other factors. Any of it could be seen/had without boost as well.

I also don't know if it's safe to assume that the standard issue valve (that comes with the TFS) was ever intended for that use. Most of these aftermarket heads end up on 500-600 hp builds where the valves are just fine. The situations you are referring to are severe duty, and they make valves for that, like you said.

I understand you knocking them because of the valves, but knocking a head because of the valves is like knocking a tire because of a wheel. Still doesn't take away from how stellar TFS heads are.

Lastly I gotta say, you dislike TFS heads for valve tuliping but have no issue with TSP heads having valve stem wear.. Isn't it really all the same at that point? Both heads have a valve problem that necessitates valve replacement..

Edit: have you notified TFS? Maybe if they are made aware of it they will change the valves. It may be that they don't even know a few guys have had an issue with them tuliping.

 

Yes every tfs 255 head.

Secondly every cyl head company will have issues. Bad batches of valves do happen, and when they do they are always caught by the customer. That means the cyl head companies cannot test every head valve etc and cant test for wear. If you get a bad batch of valves, its impossible to find out which ones and get them all back.

The tfs issue is not a problem with a single or even multiple batches of bad valves. They chose to use that style of valve which is weaker in boosted applications with no warning or advisement about it. Then when they mess up and you call in they act like its a known thing and that no one should run over 15lbs or if so should know to ask for the valve upgrade that they tell no one about nor advertise on the site or in their literature etc.

That is only one issue but a very big one. Does a customer want to pay $320+ MORE for the valves in the beginning when they learn the brand new heads they want wont hold up. Obviously not. They will though if they have to. But why have to? At that point people are running higher boost and making serious power on stock and stock ported castings with no valve issue and the ly6 engines even have inconel exhaust valves so already a basic free upgrade. Talking strictly rect port. The tfs cathedral port are great but i havent seen the 23x/24x castings or larger valved castings under boost situations so cannot say there.

The same argument applies there. When you can pull a head straight out of the box with no extra money, parts, time, effort involved, bolt them on, and go without issue, why wouldn't you?
Of course every head can be helped with a little extra tlc and expertise out of the box, but for the most complete option, buy from one place and install for a great price too, they are seriously hard to beat at TSP/PRC. They use their parts as is to make records and they do that. Their TT 5th gen will soon be the fastest out there also. Thats on a gen4 resleeve also. Its running faster now than it did with an rhs block.

I went through my emails and just searched trick flow or tfs etc and have over 120 messages to individuals recommending them. And on here also prior to these issues we have had and i have seen on social media of their castings basically splitting apart on the outboard surface as well. Its so characteristic of them, when i see it i automatically know its trick flow. Do i like that i know that? Definitely not. Does it happen all the time? No. Do i want to chance it on a customer? Absolutely not.

 

Gotcha. Appreciate the info without it turning into a disrespect or pissing contest.

For what it's worth, I have zero against TSP. I am a fan without doubt, the fact they do so much in house testing, manufacturing, and sharing of info makes me want to support them as much as possible. Living in texas fuels that a bit too, that and they are phenomenal on the phone if you call. Just also a TFS fan.

I'll keep watching out for the 255 head issue. Haven't heard of it yet besides hearing about it here.

Seems like your main gripe with TFS is they don't tell the customer they need to upgrade to a severe duty valve if using the heads on a severe duty setup. I'll agree, that would be nice to know and can be a game changer for someone shopping and comparing.

 

I think some companies believe, "let the customer buy what they want, they should know what they're doing."
Except that, if the "standard setup" has weaknesses in certain build scenarios, the buyer should be made aware of it instead of finding out for themselves at their own expense.
Of course, on the other hand, the buyer should advise the vendor of the setup in question. It's about open communication between buyer and seller.
This road runs both directions, and it's a freeway.

 

Main gripe is they are using an inferior valve deliberately when they could switch to a different more affordable option that doesnt include a $300+ set of valves.
But also they have some casting issues that meed to be addressed. Im definitely no expert there but its been happening for at least a year and a half. Mostly on boosted setups but maybe related to head gasket/coolant pressure/lifting heads more due to where they crack. Has nothing to do with the chamber etc.

 

Well, I emailed BTR for a price on bowl blending and it turns out they don't offer that service anymore, are there other places that offer that at a reasonable price?

 

I'm really curious how necessary it even is. But local machine shops should be able to handle it. I would look for a well known performance machine shop in your area and give them a call. Most people that use that head don't get the bowl blend and have great results. It's just a icing on the cake type deal.

 

But then I have read a bunch of times that a good bowl blend (AKA pocket port..) and 5 (or better) angle valve job are 90% of a good port job...