Talk about some messed up stuff
Staging Lane
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
I have to agree with all the advice. I am really concerned what happened to the car while it was at shop 1. No tuner would turn down a car to tune, especially a radical setup. To tune that car perfect would be notches on the belt for future customers. Sounds like they may have messed something up there. Another question for you just for my own knowledge for when I do a new motor next year is why didn't you just order a shortblock from one of the sponsors or was it they didn't have the exact setup you were looking for? Either way, I wish you the best and hope you can get some resolution to this that will satisfy you or allow you to move on. Just remember, when it rains it pours but nice weather is right around the corner 
Originally Posted by 1998redcoupe
Well the motor is running real rich.
[snip]
They begin tuning Thursday for a few hours before the plugs fowled because of the rich condition.
[snip]
This motor does not even have 1 (YES 1) mile on it
None the less, fouling the plugs after 1 mile sounds DAMNED rich. Is it possible the rich condition washed the valves down and they ran without lubrication?
A cam bigger than the t rex, ans you said that the heads were surfaced prior to the assembly. Even with valve reliefs, I would suspect a P/V clearance issue. An expert on here ocould probably confirm, but I think that with the trex, if the heads are shaved at all, you are in a danger zone. Shop #1 probably saw a sign of this, and that's why they didn't want to touch it. Wether they heard it or whatnot, that's my guess. When you brought it to shop #1, did you give them a build sheet on the motor, did they fire teh car up at all? The possibility of a misground lobe is there too, maybe that one was off slightly, causing the problem on that valve only. Alot of variables. Regardless, it sucks.
hey mike if you still have my number, give me a call. I will see if there is anything I can do to help the situation, i got a few ideas and questions after reading thus far. P.M me if you need my number.
REALLY sorry to hear this bud, really rotten man.
I think you are leaning in the right direction with the over revving accusation. It would make sense if every intake valve kissed the pistons. With a cam bigger than T rex, even with -2cc reliefs you would be real f'n tight on PTV if they shaved like 30 thousandths off the heads and ran a gasket with a thin compressed thickness..wouldn't take much over rev for the valves to hit.
I would like to see some pics of the other pistons that didn't break the valve off. I've see this before and am curious how deep the marks are in hte pistons from the valves.
Anyone think that maybe the head job wasn't so hot and that one valve just dropped outta the head?
I remember telling you on the phone way back when the extreme importance of verifying the PTV with what you were talking about doing...are you positive this shot that did assembly of the motor verified your PTV?
REALLY sorry to hear this bud, really rotten man.
I think you are leaning in the right direction with the over revving accusation. It would make sense if every intake valve kissed the pistons. With a cam bigger than T rex, even with -2cc reliefs you would be real f'n tight on PTV if they shaved like 30 thousandths off the heads and ran a gasket with a thin compressed thickness..wouldn't take much over rev for the valves to hit.
I would like to see some pics of the other pistons that didn't break the valve off. I've see this before and am curious how deep the marks are in hte pistons from the valves.
Anyone think that maybe the head job wasn't so hot and that one valve just dropped outta the head?
I remember telling you on the phone way back when the extreme importance of verifying the PTV with what you were talking about doing...are you positive this shot that did assembly of the motor verified your PTV?
what springs are you using? Were the manley's back cut? I know that the back cut valves are not recommended for all out racing nor should they be used on a radical solid lift setup. I've seen them pop the heads right off at the seat and pop the stems off like a bad zit. It is possible that you had a retainer, or lock fail. look at the retainers to see if there are any signs that it pulled the lock through. doesn't sound like anyone really did anything wrong, its just the way engine building goes sometimes. Not ever part is flaw free that is why they x-ray and magnuflux rods, pistons, springs, blocks and such before stabbing them into Pro race cars. I can relate to you as I've had something close to the same thing...woman and all happen to me all at once. sucks.
No tuner would turn down a car to tune, especially a radical setup.
I'll pass, rather than make a couple hundred bucks for 10+ hours of dyno & seat time. Your cam (244/248 .629/.629 112 LSA) is quite large to run in a 347 with an A4. I do not think it is the dyno shop's fault. It sounds like something failed in the motor (the valve). What kind of springs were you using? What was the ramp rate on the cam? You could have had valve bounce (which can tear stuff up quick).
Just some things to think about...
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
From: kc, kansas
The PtV was cool. Everything was degreed in and when I said a mile I mean it. They didn't run it but once the first day. The second I do not know. The first day they were just turning it on and trying to get it to idle really and made one pull before they saw the graph and said the plugs were fouled. So a mile is about right. The manley springs and retainers were all fine. I had the motor built here because I wanted to be there every step of the way. I really wanted to see it done and assembled right with the parts I chose and the kind of money i was dropping. I was in the shop everyday the car was there and at the machine shop twice overseeing everything. It was cool until they got it. hell i do not know any more. Oh and the head was just cleaned up and trued hardly anything was taken off of it and i was using stock compressed height gaskets. I guess i will just put the old motor in it and sell it. I give up.
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
From: kc, kansas
Alright guys after talking to my mechanic, we are thinking that only one piston was f'd up all the intake valves were bent, the one head was messed and the rod was bent. I want this to work SOMEONE PLEASE REFER ME TO SOMEONE THAT CAN HOOK ME UP. I do not care how but I would like to have this rebuilt and running ASAP. HELP! I want to use the same cam and setup but maybe someone can convince me other wise. I firmly believe this is a stout setup and really want it to work. I am very short on cash but may be able to scrounge something up. Also I will want a reputable dyno place. I do not care where. This time it will be done right. Please I need help to get this thing up and running.
I'm still curious what valvespring you were running.
The Manley 221423 is the only one I see that's rated for the LS1 "off the shelf". Manley rates it to .575" lift, but some of the online vendors say good to .600" lift. Just for my own curiousity.
The Manley 221423 is the only one I see that's rated for the LS1 "off the shelf". Manley rates it to .575" lift, but some of the online vendors say good to .600" lift. Just for my own curiousity.
my advice is to get your valves relpaced, CLAY THE MOTOR for pv clearance. and then adjust your fly cuts on the piston accordingly. This will alleviate any question of pv problem. You probably smacked a piston and the valve bent...piston came up again and hit the stuck valve...broke...dropped into cylinder...and the rest is obvious.
Originally Posted by Camaroholic
I'm still curious what valvespring you were running.
The Manley 221423 is the only one I see that's rated for the LS1 "off the shelf". Manley rates it to .575" lift, but some of the online vendors say good to .600" lift. Just for my own curiousity.
The Manley 221423 is the only one I see that's rated for the LS1 "off the shelf". Manley rates it to .575" lift, but some of the online vendors say good to .600" lift. Just for my own curiousity.
I'm no mechanic, but is 320 open seat pressure enough to suppress float with very fast ramps and very high lift? I get float with a baby cam .525/.532 and CC 915's with I think have a little over 300 open pressure.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
From: kc, kansas
Originally Posted by bigdsz
I'm no mechanic, but is 320 open seat pressure enough to suppress float with very fast ramps and very high lift? I get float with a baby cam .525/.532 and CC 915's with I think have a little over 300 open pressure.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
From: kc, kansas
Well guys I got good news today. My mechanic knows the head technican at a local CHevy Dealership and he volunteered to come by the shop tommorrow and take the ecu and run a complete scan on it and will tell us what offically happened inside the motor. I say over-rev. He offered to bring a couple of gm mechanics to put the motor shapply together and try to re-enact what happened (take PtV measurements). Also I have been talking to Jason at TSP extensively for the past two days and he offered to help me out also. They will have my business as soon as I get my evidence I need to put the blame where it belongs. Sean (silverghost) was busy today on the phone getting all this setup, will call tommorrow to discuss my situation. I would like to extend my gratitude to everyone that has offered their opinions and especially to Jason at TSP, and also Sean for helping me out. I think I am going to be able to get this squared away.
My last question and then I'll shut up. 
I'd be curious to hear an explanation of how an automatic gets "overrevved" while running a 244+ duration camshaft, that's cut with a 112 LSA? That cam is going to *want* to see 7300+ RPMs. My old solid roller cam was a 242/242 on a 114. It liked to go to 7500. If you can read the PCM, look at the rev limiter. An automatic won't go above that. If the tuner set the rev limiter to 7700-8000, and they really spun it that high, then yes, it'd be possible. But I think it's more likely coil bind or P-to-V contact. Or possibly lifter pump-up. How did the lifter look that was under the valve that failed?
Do you have any dyno sheets at all (even bad ones)?
Disclaimer: I have no idea what tuner you used, so I'm not necessarily "defending" them, but people like to try to blame the "tuner / dyno operator" for a mechanical problem. I've seen it before, and this won't be the last time. Also, I paid attention when Thunder delayed my motor for 6 months trying to figure out the valvetrain. We could not find a set of off the shelf springs that made Geoff happy on a valvetrain analyzer, so he ended up getting a custom set made.
I'd be curious to hear an explanation of how an automatic gets "overrevved" while running a 244+ duration camshaft, that's cut with a 112 LSA? That cam is going to *want* to see 7300+ RPMs. My old solid roller cam was a 242/242 on a 114. It liked to go to 7500. If you can read the PCM, look at the rev limiter. An automatic won't go above that. If the tuner set the rev limiter to 7700-8000, and they really spun it that high, then yes, it'd be possible. But I think it's more likely coil bind or P-to-V contact. Or possibly lifter pump-up. How did the lifter look that was under the valve that failed?
Do you have any dyno sheets at all (even bad ones)?
Disclaimer: I have no idea what tuner you used, so I'm not necessarily "defending" them, but people like to try to blame the "tuner / dyno operator" for a mechanical problem. I've seen it before, and this won't be the last time. Also, I paid attention when Thunder delayed my motor for 6 months trying to figure out the valvetrain.
We could not find a set of off the shelf springs that made Geoff happy on a valvetrain analyzer, so he ended up getting a custom set made. Last edited by Camaroholic; Jul 23, 2004 at 06:40 AM.
TECH Addict
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,620
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From: Central, MA
Originally Posted by 1998redcoupe
Alright guys after talking to my mechanic, we are thinking that only one piston was f'd up all the intake valves were bent, the one head was messed and the rod was bent.
I know you wanted to run that same cam in your next shortblock, but I just don't think it'll work with these heads...