low2001gmc

iTrader: (148)

500rwhp is a nice goal, but even better I think is 1/4 et; cause if you get 500rwhp but get beat by less, itll hurt.

Pat G has made it clear at least a 235 intake duration cam is needed with good Mamo touched up heads. Spnmonster has stated a 236 cam with AFR 205s will do it. Mamo has recommended his 220 heads. Others have had good success near at 500 with BTR or PRC Heads.

You have a big Crow Cam but what is LSA but will it have Piston to Valve Clearance issues??? Big with stock compression I'm not a fan of. I think higher compression with a milder cam will get along and drive better.

I've had a friend dyno at 423rwhp, way below your goal, but run 10.80s in a full weight 4th gen z28 with fast 102, 230-236/110 cam, all bolt ons, some of home ported 243s, suspension mods and bogarts.

If rebuilding and still set on 500rwhp, I would do wiseco pro tru pistons with domes and notches, gen 4 Rods, arp rod bolts, a 235 cam, some touched up 220 heads, fast or MSD intake, all bolt ons, and see what it'll... Being stick should help you. Use light clutch.
​​​​​​

​​​​​​Good luck with build and keep us posted.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

AussieJakeLS1, I hear you!

Some additional fun reading of other 500+ whp LS1/LS6 builds that may be of interest. A lot of these are older builds so links to videos & graphics maybe hit or miss.

video-at-idle-plus-streetability-and-wot-with-my-511rwhp-fti

It's also been done with an automatic
522rwhp-440rwtq-a4-346-update-track-results-car-vid-4-10-11

The recipe by Chef PatG
recipe-500-rwhp-heads-cam


FWIW - I've read but can't find the link any longer a set of LPE GMPP LS6 heads, GM's Grand Am cam & ported aftermarket intake can breaking 500+ whp on an LS1/LS6 but durability is usually measured in hours.

There are also a couple of other sets of well ported stock LS6/243/799 heads breaking the 500whp mark NA on 346 cubes with fat cams & well ported intakes etc...lot of them ended in at ~480 to 490 whp expenses too...crap shoot

Kfxguy

iTrader: (1)

I have an 04 ls1 gto....it had the better rods in it. I turned it 7200 on the regular.

aussiejakels1

Thanks low2001gmc,

E/T I'll worry about once it's built, I'm going to have to work something out with the rear end as at the moment on current setup I can't get anything wider than 255mm (roughly 10") of tyre under the guards. There is another model of Holden that has a narrower rear end that will apparently bolt under my body. Then I'll work out decent suspension and get t/s and diff built to suit.

The LSA of the crow cam is 114
Part number is 871252 if you want to check it out on Crow website.

I'll need to do the math on valve clearance and lift once I decide on the rest of the combo.

Pat G's build thread is the reason I've gotten in touch with Tony Mamo. Great build, lots of really good info in there.

Launch

Back in 2004 i had a heads/cam 346 stock bottom end. VTii HSV R8. The heads were cnc'd 5.3 heads which bumped compression to over 11:1. They were stage 2 'absolute speed' heads.. no longer available. And cam was a Futral 230/230 .590 112 cam. Still with a stock ls6 intake and stock ported TB the car went 120mph n/a in the 1/4 mile with a th400/4000 stall and 4.11 gears. I shifted it regularly to 7200rpm. And it was no track only queen, i thrashed that engine on the street for 70,000 miles and lost count of how many 1/4 mile runs it did. It started off as just being tuned/exhaust etc, then 'cam only' , then the heads went on it.

By the cars weight and mph, i calculated it was making 540hp flywheel. And it still only had 1 3/4 headers on it, and it wasn't tuned anywhere near optimum. I was afraid to run it lean back then, which i've since learned these engines can take a whole lot more abuse than people can imagine. On the 1/4 mile runs that it backed up 120mph 3 times.. the air fuel ratio was in the high 11's. Way rich. I never went back to the track to improve on it for various reasons, but it had a heap of potential left in it. Someone later told me that by just removing the rear HSV spoiler i had on the car at the time alone was worth 2mph gain in the 1/4. They had tested it themselves at the track with their own commodore and the removing the rear spoiler they gained 2 mph.

That ls1 engine lived, and i returned the whole car all back to dead stock and sold the car. From approx 30,000 kms when i bought the car near new, i sold it with 135,000 kms. And the entire time i had the car it was driven hard and raced.

Keep the sump approx 0.5 to 1 litre over filled with oil and don't be afraid to rev it over 7000. That said mine was a sbe from the factory never touched other than an upgraded new ls6 oil pump. I'd be more cautious of a rebuilt engine, if they've reused the rod bolts or even torqued them properly.

Also fyi... i've owned another 'cam-only' 02 sbe ls1 since then.... which i had in my LS swapped 94 camaro. And i regularly shifted that ls1 at 7600rpm and it didn't break. And now i've put that same cammed engine in a daily driver commodore with a 4l60e, and it's still going. Although i've detuned it a little, but i still have the shift points at 7150rpm and it sees it regularly. And the engine still has perfect compression and doesn't use oil.

I run fuchs 15/40 'truckplus' diesel oil in all my ls1's, and i'm convinced it keeps the bearings and lifters alive better than any car oil.

But if you listen to most aussie workshops... they'll tell you none of this is possible. I'm an ex-mechanic by trade that left the industry a long time ago.

The rods and rod bolts do not break easy on these engines even the gen 3's. Most people that have grenaded them is because they had oil pressure drop and spun a bearing/s.

My current LS2 in my camaro has stock gen4 rods and rod bolts, small bore ls7 heads, 243/250 .660 108 cam with 30 degrees overlap, and i shift it at 8000rpm.

Also if you want to hit 500rwhp n/a and have a commodore, make sure you don't have one of those off the shelf aussie cat-back exhausts where the x-pipe has been basically squashed down to the diameter of a single pipe. They're not a proper x-pipe, and they restrict the engine. Either modify it and open the x-pipe up larger so it's a proper diameter of 2 pipes, or get rid of the x-pipe completely and just fit a h-pipe.

Launch

Also, my heads were stage 2.5's not 2's. You will need a Mamo afr 230 or 235 to be comparable or better, or whichever the best flowing heads he has that will fit a stock ls1 bore.

And cam selection is the next most important. I'd email Ed Curtis at EPS and tell him you want to hit 500rwhp n/a and get his recommendation as his cams are one of the best performers i've seen.

aussiejakels1

This is what I like to see. This gives me comfort.

I do indeed have one of the "off the shelf catbacks" on my commodore at the moment but am looking for a reputable brand with a good crossover for this build. Thinking about getting an exhaust shop to fab one up for me. Unless you have any suggestions. Everything off the shelf looks similar just in different types of steel.

Interesting about the diesel oil. I might look further into that. I was also in the trade for 8 years. Walked away to maintain the passion and financial reasons. Loved it, but couldn't cop the labour:pay ratio.

Shadow02SS

I have made 488 so far threw a Dana 60 with 4.10's with a Mamo 92 fast, TEA TFS heads 225cc, 236/240 cam. I did just switch to a Mamo 102 so maybe it will crack that 500 number, the car has trapped 126mph at 3600lbs

Launch

For a 500rwhp n/a 346ci attempt i'd personally go to a twin 3" exhaust. The expensive ones like Manta and Pacemaker have a crossover pipe that isn't restrictive at all. If you search them you can see for yourself just from the pics. But depending on your budget for what they cost if you are trying to keep cost down i'd just redo the pipework at the front on one of the cheaper cat-backs like this one.. (put this in ebay search as this forum doesn't allow external links to parts...): "HOLDEN COMMODORE VT VX VZ VY SEDAN V8 6/99-12/05 VEO TWIN 3" CATBACK EXHAUST". And that's only if the x-pipe looks too restrictive in person depending on which exhaust you go with.

On a proper x-pipe the pipes should merge together but not get squashed down so much to restrict the actual size of the pipes.. which is what they have done on all the cheaper twin 2.5" cat-backs, which doesn't work, it slows the car down. I tested this at the drag strip, not a dyno. That was with a twin 2.5" cat-back. I'm not sure on the cheap mild steel twin 3" exhausts, the VEO twin 3" one above i mentioned it looks like the x-pipe maybe isn't as squashed down as most of the cheaper 2.5" systems are but it could just be the pics.

Back when i raced my HSV at the drag strip i dropped the exhaust and it only improved 1 tenth of a second in et, compared to running it straight out the headers, with 12" long 3" collector extensions bolted on to the back of the headers. I only had a cheap mild steel 'off the shelf' twin 2.5" cat-back on it also, but i had modified the x-pipe myself and made it larger so the pipes weren't so restricted. Basically the outsides of each pipe where the x-pipe is they were cut out like a long oval, and exhaust pipe welded back on the outside out further so the diameter of both pipes stayed a constant 2.5" (actually a bit larger) but it still kept the open merge in the middle. It didn't look very pretty as it needed a lot of welding but it worked.

If you need help on the tuning side of it let me know. I tune my own cars and i can look over your tune with HP tuners. To hit 500rwhp n/a you are going to have to get rid of all the torque management, deactivate the knock sensors, deactivate all timing retard, deactivate the cat over-temp enrichment, basically deactivate anything in the tune that can and will reduce power. I've done that with all my LS cars, even my daily driver. I just trust using proper 98 octane and i get the tune right so the car doesn't detonate. And the power is always dead consistent and the engine is at it's most potential.

The tune alone is worth a heap of power in LS engines. The factory PCM will pull out spark and add excess fuel and kill your power so easily if the knock sensors and timing retards are left active in the tune. You want to have none of it when trying to make the most HP possible n/a. Basically you make it behave like an old school carb'd engine, with just spark, timing, and air and fuel and nothing else to hinder it. The workshops that tune peoples cars don't want to do this for customers because they want to leave the safety's in the tune, which i can't blame them, but the engines typically don't make the power they can make. Just the vibration from the cam and headers alone can activate the knock timing retard and kill a heap of power. And it can be erratic. You never know when it'll happen and all of a sudden you are down 50hp. This is one major reason why some people will build n/a ls's, and if they don't tune it themselves it never runs how they think it should. And then you will see a handful of cars be above all the rest. And people will wonder why is that car so quick or making that much power and mine isn't. A lot of the power is in the tune itself. No matter how good your heads/cam are, and all the other surrounding parts, the wrong tune in an LS will kill a heap of power and torque.

You can believe who you want on the tune side of it but i've owned multiple worked ls1's and ls2's and i tune out all the safety in the PCM so there's nothing that can rob power and i'm still yet to grenade an engine. It's almost as basic as if you always run 98 octane, your compression ratio is under 11.5:1, your air/fuel ratio is kept at high 12's, and timing is kept at under 30 degrees, it's never going to ever blow itself up from detonation. And if you ever hear some detonation at a certain rpm, you go inside the tune and back off the timing a few degrees and/or richen up the air/fuel a little and it clears it right up.

Now that said if you tune like i've just said with no safety's, you need to have some common sense and not go out on a 38 or 40 degree C hot day and thrash the **** out of it wide open throttle, like you normally would on a 20 to 30 degree C day.
It's not like we get very many hot weather these days anyway with all of this global warming

Edit: I also forgot to mention i've always run a 160F thermostat since my first ls1 and in the rest of them, and i tune the engine fans to come in early at 165 degrees. Leave the "the engine needs to run hotter or it'll wear out the cylinders" to the 1970's cast iron block without sleeves engine owners. Running a hotter thermostat than 160F, you are just creating more potential for detonation while also losing power and also cooking your engine oil temps. You will typically find the guy with a nice hole punched outside of their LS block thanks to a conrod have a stock thermostat in it and their engine fans coming in at 200F + and it cooked the engine oil under wide open throttle to the point it has no viscosity and it wiped out a rod bearing. Or they wiped out a cam bearing instead. But they'll no doubt still be the LS expert in their own mind.

grinder11

iTrader: (1)

This guy makes sense!! I honestly think an A&A blower will cost similar, maybe only a tiny bit more, than going N/A at 500whp level. If OP goes N/A trying for 500 wheel, it's going to be really rad driveability wise. FI will be more reliable, less radical, and more powerful, a win-win-win. My .02

Damian

iTrader: (89)

This age old question is still being discussed I see. lol
The vets in the LS game figured this out long ago. Can it be done? Yes. But for the money you spent just to say you made a 346 make 500hp, you could've made a LOT more power going other routes.

02EBC5Z06

iTrader: (1)

As many have said in here, it is very possible to do so and a lot easier if you know the right route and the basic key items..

On my C5Z, it took TFS 220s (as cast, no porting or milling).. Hollow stem LS3 intake valves. BTR Shaft mount or some prw billet pedestals. STOCK ROCKERS.... BTR Stage 4 LS3 cam (233/250)... Mine has a hi ram and Shearer fab lid, but you could get this done with an msd with some work done. I spin mine to 7500 with Johnson ST2126lsr lifters, 11/32 rods. Has a vacuum pump, 1-3/4 headers. Compression is around 11:1..

The biggest keys to this goal in my opinion are the following:

• Cam in the 230s/240+ duration range
• RPM and Compression.. Don't be afraid of either, your motor will be fine.
• Lightweight, STIFF valvetrain.
  • Run the correct springs, a large enough pushrod, good lifters, Stock rockers will turn all the rpm you want.
• I honestly think a well done 243 or 799 would get here too, but getting the compression up will probably take some flycutting
• A manifold that will hold the rpm up high where it needs

Shtstr

Another Australian here from Brisbane.

I'm in the process of putting parts together to make a N/A 600 plus at flywheel hp.
I've gone with 383 6 cc dome top forged pistons on top of 6.3 inch rods to retain the 346 cubic inch ls1 and achieve a better rod ratio for higher rpm.
With a 65cc chamberhead and a 35 tho head gasket givesme11.78 to 1 staticcompression.

This I've matched to a comp 54 458 11 cam that has 54 degrees of overlap and inlet valve closing at 68 degrees ABDC .
This give me a 9.1 dynamic compression ratio or 194psi cranking compression.
Still safe on pump98 here in Australia.
I'm looking at 2 different heads at the moment.
1 Mamo 227cc heads
2 gen x 215cc heads.

Both heads have positive and negatives to them but I'll probably end up going for the 215 heads as the mamo 277 heads require the use of a 4.060 head gasket to achieve their flow.

I've also gone with a lot of other top end parts like Jisel shaft rockers and Johnson tie bar lifters.

not a cheap parts list by any means and could have made it cheaper with a 383 stroker kit but the ls1 have a problem here in Australia with the piston coming part of the way out of the bore at bottom dead centre with the 4 inch stroke.
I know plenty of people run them and they are just fine.
it's just personal choice for myself that's all.

Launch

Idk about a 5.7 but my 6.0 ls2 is very driveable with 243/250 .660 108+2 cam and 30 degrees overlap. It took a bit of idle tuning to get it that way compared to a smaller cam. Traction on the unprepped street is another issue, second vid below is on 28x14.5 hoosier qtp's at 20psi and i still have to slow rolling start and peddle it in 1st to not blow the tires. 8" 5000+ stall converter is a bit radical for the street in terms of traction, but it drives anywhere just fine. I'm sure i could swap out the converter to a 4000-4500 and it'd still be good but get better traction on the street

https://www.bitchute.com/video/B442PXOuby7Q/

https://www.bitchute.com/video/KifIxIIZCKCA/

Launch

Vids are open cut-out which is why it so loud. When i close the cut out its much tamer

Shtstr

as much as we would like to just go all out with turbos and superchargers here in Australia we are restricted by the fun police with what we can and can't do. Unlike in the USA. I'll put up a photo of how our engine guide lines work for cars. ​​​​​​​ As you can see by this chart. Say our car weight is 1250kg or 1.250 ton.​​​​​​​we can only use a 6.2L engine in N/A form or if we want to run a turbo we can only use a 3.75L engine with a turbo.​​​​​​​kinda s@#ks .​​​​​​​

Shtstr

Pulse Red

My understanding is that this table is not set in stone, at least not for all states. An engineer can put forward a variation on those power to weight ratios when submitting cars for registration. I think that's why the table you posted says recommended maximum engine capacity.

The recommendation has always been to consult with an engineer before starting a project to see what they will pass rather than taking that table as 100 firm. Some engineers are more lenient than others too.

There's certainly many LS powered cars running around that don't adhere to that table that have been properly engineered and registered. Check out some of the recent 6-8 second 1/4 mile street driven LS cars, cruising the streets. They are running turbo big cube LS in VLs etc

Pulse Red

That's certainly got some lope! The shop that built my original LS1 5.7 head and cam combo said to me that the 6.0 cars could take more cam / overlap than a 5.7 and stay just as streetable. The extra cubes and better engine management on the later cars allowed for it. Then again, as we all know, one person's version of streetable can be different to the next.

Shtstr

yes I know there is a lot in Australia that don't fall into line with those rules. You will find it's because they have been altered after they were approved by the engineer.​​​​​​​there has been a few engineers who have lost their living due to people doing just that.​​​​​​​it's a sad state of affairs when someone loses their ability to earn an income because someone wants a turbo or supercharged car and changes it after the engineers have inspected the vehicle.​​​​​​​engineers are now taking photos of cars to provide evidence to protect themselves from these people. ​​​​​​​I personally hope they get caught before they injure someone or worse just because they want bragging rights with hp.​​​​​​​I have 2 torana's that are both highly modified and both meet the rules set by TMR here in QLD.​​​​​​​one has a turbo 6 cylinder that meets the rules and the other is in the build atm with the complete driveline from a vy adventra lx8.
​​​​​​​It's the only one in Australia that I know of.