Before I install my ARP studs do I sand the washer like people say or no? I've heard people say don't sand the washer, sand the washer, put the ARP assembly lube on both sides of the washer, the washer will spin under the nut and give you a inaccurate torque reading, this that and the third. what do I do? This is going to be my very first time installing and using studs.

ARP studs I am using:
https://www.michiganmotorsports.com/...6-l77-ly6-l96/

 

ive never heard of sanding washers.
put lube on threads and both sides of washers, dont overthink it. you want everything to move freely during torquing

 

Okay, thanks! People online say to sand the washers few times so it bites down on the steel and doesn’t move while clamping.

 

Think of the bolt threads as a lever or inclined plane; and any friction in the system as ... friction, in the context of those 2 simple machines. Like, you're sitting on the kids' teeter-totter, and its trunnion is "sticky", and you get stuck at the high end, and somebody makes a slight motion, and all the sudden, something "gives" and your *** is planted in the concrete.

Do you want friction?

Pay more attention to common sense and less to what "they" "say".

Leave them as smooth as possible, use the lube they recommend, and follow the instructions.

 

Okay, thanks! This is my first time installing studs and I want to make sure I don’t mess this up.

 

My engine builder told me to make sure the surface of the head where the washer sits is cleaned with alcohol as with the threads and washers, then apply ARP lube on the threads above the washer and under the nut. He builds nothing but 1000-1800hp sand car engines.

 

I'm pretty sure ARP has changed their instructions.

Brian Tooley posted a video on YT several years talking about this problem.

Yes you need friction when you are going to an actual TQ number and not an angle, however...

With todays better machining standards(smoother, more uniform) and moly lube everywhere, it acts as "ball bearings". With the lower amount of friction, the tourqe wrench never "feels" the preset tourqe number, so you keep stretching the bolt till it breaks or your pull the threads out of the block.

I have seen some builders that suggest sanding the washers on the side of the head to give it some tooth to actually bite into the head. It keeps everything from spinning, preventing the "ball bearing" effect.

What brutalz06 posted the most common thing I've seen recommended.

 

I snapped a stud by having lube on the washer, and not sanding it.... Like said above, DO NOT get lube on the washer and make sure it is CLEAN if you are not going to sand them or you will over torque them.
.... this was with Chinese studs..... and it was the first one I torqued down... I sanded all the other ones and had no problem with them

 

yikes the internet strikes again.

 

If you snap a stud with the torque wrench on the right number, whether you sand the washer, grease the washer, grind grooves in the washer, or forget the washer----your torque wrench is no good, or you didn't hear the click or beep, and you are waaaaay too strong. And then there is the Chinese junk. :-)

 

So then what do I do? Just a dry washer?

 

That makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

The torque wrench "feels" however much resistance it gets to its attempt to rotate the fastener, from whatever is resisting it. Ideally, ALL of the force the wrench applies, should be used to cause the fastener to TIGHTEN its threads. All friction does is add an unpredictable random element of ADDITIONAL resistance BEYOND actually torquing the fastener. Meaning, however much friction there randomly happens to be, ends up causing the fastener to be UNDER-TORQUED. You just have no way to know by how much.

 

Does no one bother to read instructions, or do a simple google search anymore?


https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...ng-head-bolts/

 

I should have worded it different.

Depending on what type of lubricant you use on the fasteners, is going to change the coheficent of friction. This is also one of the reasons a lot of OEM fasteners have been TTY for years.

Considering that a vast majority of a tourqe value is from over coming the friction of the fastener; threads, washer, cylinder head, etc and not the stretching of the fastenser, the lubricant plays a big role in how much the fastener will be stretched.

Install a headbolt with no lubricant at all and tourqe to 100 ft lbs.
Remove it, put 30w on the threads and tourqe it to 100ft lbs
Then do the same thing with ARP moly lube.

Are you going to hit 100ft lbs each way? Absolutely. But you are going to get more rotations of the fastener and ultimately more stretch. That's why ARP states to use their moly lube when following their instructions and if you use something different or loctite, the tourqe values should be adjusted accordingly.

Keeping that in mind, the smoother the surface of the head, the washer, where and how much lubricant you use, is going to lessen the friction which is going to result in even more stretch or pulling the threads out.

I know you already know that, I just wanted to explain what I meant by that statement. I agree it was not worded very well.

 

The problem might have just been the “Chinese studs”

I actually just read the book by Jospeh Potak the author of ‘How to Build and Modify LS Engines’ and he states “When using ARP hardware it is necessary to use the proper ARP moly lube to achieve accurate torque values. Apply a mild coating on the hardened ARP washer. Also apply moly lube coating to the washer face of the ARP threaded nut and smear inside on the threads themselves.”

No where does he mention anything of “sanding a washer”



there you go OP

 

Of course. The torque wrench will "read" "100 lbs" no matter what, if it's 2 feet long and you put 50 lbs of pull on it, or any other combo that multiplies out to 100. It will even "read" "100 lbs" if the threads are totally stripped and the fastener isn't tightening AT ALL and instead ALL of the torque is created by the friction of the destroyed threads. BUT THE FASTENER WILL BE AT A DIFFERENT TIGHTNESS if friction is introduced. Worse, the user has NO WAY TO KNOW how much error the friction causes. Even worse yet, there's potentially ALOT of difference between STARTING friction (which is why I don't like "clicker" wrenches in the first place) and SLIDING friction.

Of course. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. Ideally the fastener should have NO FRICTION WHATSOEVER in its tightening process, because that AND THAT ALONE will assure consistent tightening, to the spec that it needs. The threads are an inclined plane, and to get the desired clamping force, they have to be engaged by some certain amount (number of turns). Anything else - that is, any added friction - introduces error and uncertainty, if one is attempting to determine how tight the fastener is by way of measuring the torque it takes to turn it.

Mfrs like ARP know perfectly well however, that "no friction whatsoever" is not attainable in this universe. I've personally regretted that ever since being assigned to this one. Instead, they give instructions that take into account some reasonably well known amount of unavoidable friction, while also making a sales pitch for extremely profitable follow-on products (their branded assembly lube) in the instructions. That DOES NOT MEAN that friction is A Good Thing when torquing fasteners.

TTY is a non-issue in this regard. It was NOT driven by anything about friction, inconsistent torque, or any related matter. Rather, the whole idea of TTY is that it turns the BOLT into a SPRING, letting it give and move when properly tightened, as opposed to "assuming" that, as a BOLT, it will remain unyielding (not very real-worldish).

Back in the SBC days, where head bolts required sealer (ARP thread lube or oil or grease or whatever other lube can't be used on those), I always used the type with PTFE in it. PTFE of course is an EXTREMELY good lube; better than oil in fact. (you actually INCREASE the coefficient of friction of a Teflon-coated surface - introduce friction to it - by oiling it) The "spec" for those was 60-65 ft-lbs. I NEVER EVER exceeded 65; I would sneak up on 60, like 30 all the way around then 45 then 60 then another round at 60, making sure the fastener was MOVING as I read the wrench (beam or dial type) as opposed to what it took to BREAK IT LOOSE, and that the needle passed 60 as I was tightening it. Other sealants required different (more) torque to be applied because of their poorer lubrication, and the end result wasn't as consistent.

 

No that’s much too difficult. Besides, what does the fastener manufacturer know?

 

Arp washers have a textured surface already. They go in one way. At least mine did. You lube both sides of washer and bolt per instructions. Do not modify the hardware in any way.

 

I don't remember when they switched to this design on the washers, but it's the new norm.

 

I just went on ARP's site and it literally says DO NOT lube the side of the washer that goes against the head. The OP has head studs, not bolts, so the instructions may be different, but for his application, it is 100% ZERO lube. Just want to make sure he doesn't damage his engine.