Swapping springs vs new heads
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From: Franconia, PA
Swapping springs vs new heads Thinking about a cam swap in the future. How much effort is swapping springs on existing heads vs removing and installing new heads? If the time difference isn't too great, it seems like it would make sense to grab some prc 220, 225 or ls6 cnc heads, which already come with springs, valves, etc. Save me some money too if I decided to swap heads in the future. Wouldn't have to pay for springs twice so to speak. Thoughts?
Other benefits would be I could use new lifters and trays and not risk a lifter and possibly even an engine failure by rolling with 20 year old lifters with 115k miles on them....
Other benefits would be I could use new lifters and trays and not risk a lifter and possibly even an engine failure by rolling with 20 year old lifters with 115k miles on them....
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From: Franconia, PA
New lifters wouldn't be a bad idea, but is WAY more involved
So with that said im doing a Ls3 swap lol, so I dont see a down side to atleast going ahead and doing lifters and throwing a set of nice heads on there while your at it if you have the funds.
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Are you doing this on a 4th Gen? Because I hated doing a heads/cam swap on mine. If I ever do it again, the engine is just getting dropped out of the bottom. My 5th Gen was cake to swap valve springs on, and probably wouldn't be a pain to swap heads on either. I don't think doing springs would be THAT bad on a 4th Gen, but I recommend getting a mechanic's pad to lay over the front so you can lay across the engine bay to reach the rearmost springs.
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From: Franconia, PA
Are you doing this on a 4th Gen? Because I hated doing a heads/cam swap on mine. If I ever do it again, the engine is just getting dropped out of the bottom. My 5th Gen was cake to swap valve springs on, and probably wouldn't be a pain to swap heads on either. I don't think doing springs would be THAT bad on a 4th Gen, but I recommend getting a mechanic's pad to lay over the front so you can lay across the engine bay to reach the rearmost springs.
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From: Franconia, PA
My car has 103k with factory lifters and I got one that is driving me crazy right now, tick tick tick tick tick.....
New lifters wouldn't be a bad idea, but is WAY more involved
So with that said im doing a Ls3 swap lol, so I dont see a down side to atleast going ahead and doing lifters and throwing a set of nice heads on there while your at it if you have the funds.
New lifters wouldn't be a bad idea, but is WAY more involved
So with that said im doing a Ls3 swap lol, so I dont see a down side to atleast going ahead and doing lifters and throwing a set of nice heads on there while your at it if you have the funds.
Will you be removing your heads to inspect/replace lifters?
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wouldn't have to worry about dropping a lifter
wouldn't have to worry about dropping a ... valve
I'm guessing it's around 1/10 as much work to swap springs, as it is to swap heads. Not to mention the extra expenses like gaskets, bolts, fluids, etc. etc. etc. As has been hinted at, different body styles make any kind of engine work harder; butt I think you'll find that they have the same effect on either process.
Now if you're swapping the cam, then that ratio goes down to maybe ¼. And if you're swapping lifters, then the heads MUST come off anyway. And of course if the heads are tired and need wirk (valve job for example) then the choice is obviously also already made for you. Butt if you're only "thinking about" a cam swap "in the future", and just wanna upgrade springs NOW, which helps a surprising amount even with a stock cam, then just get out there and do it.
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From: Franconia, PA
What???
You don't. Just bring the pistons to TDC 2 at a time, fill the 2 cyls with rope through the spark plug holes, and swap the springs out.
I'm guessing it's around 1/10 as much work to swap springs, as it is to swap heads. Not to mention the extra expenses like gaskets, bolts, fluids, etc. etc. etc. As has been hinted at, different body styles make any kind of engine work harder; butt I think you'll find that they have the same effect on either process.
Now if you're swapping the cam, then that ratio goes down to maybe ¼. And if you're swapping lifters, then the heads MUST come off anyway. And of course if the heads are tired and need wirk (valve job for example) then the choice is obviously also already made for you. Butt if you're only "thinking about" a cam swap "in the future", and just wanna upgrade springs NOW, which helps a surprising amount even with a stock cam, then just get out there and do it.
You don't. Just bring the pistons to TDC 2 at a time, fill the 2 cyls with rope through the spark plug holes, and swap the springs out.
I'm guessing it's around 1/10 as much work to swap springs, as it is to swap heads. Not to mention the extra expenses like gaskets, bolts, fluids, etc. etc. etc. As has been hinted at, different body styles make any kind of engine work harder; butt I think you'll find that they have the same effect on either process.
Now if you're swapping the cam, then that ratio goes down to maybe ¼. And if you're swapping lifters, then the heads MUST come off anyway. And of course if the heads are tired and need wirk (valve job for example) then the choice is obviously also already made for you. Butt if you're only "thinking about" a cam swap "in the future", and just wanna upgrade springs NOW, which helps a surprising amount even with a stock cam, then just get out there and do it.
I have no reason to think my heads need work. They would only be removed to replqce lifters pro actively. And while they were off, no reason not to upgrade them. It would be the best time.
I wasn't sure if you could use upgraded springs with the stock cam. Didn't know if it would be too much pressure. That's something I might do ahead of time then to make the actual camswap easier if I decide to leave the heads on.
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I've done the rope method a number of times to change cams in my LS project both in and out of the car. The only "special" tool I've bought is the tool that compresses two valve springs at a time so you can get the keepers out. Pull all the plugs first so the engine can be turned over easily with a breaker bar,
Oh since I'm an old guy (LOL) I put the car up on jack stands so I don't have to bend over so far over the fender. Saves the back.
Oh since I'm an old guy (LOL) I put the car up on jack stands so I don't have to bend over so far over the fender. Saves the back.
Ive found it a bit easier to feed a bit more than needed rope into a cyl, then bring the piston up to compress.
On mine, when already at tdc, feeding rope into a cyl wasn’t really working. I was well… pushing rope.
also helped because there was hardly any valve movement before the retainer unseated.
On mine, when already at tdc, feeding rope into a cyl wasn’t really working. I was well… pushing rope.
also helped because there was hardly any valve movement before the retainer unseated.
Yeah that was my thinking. Is pulling heads a lot more difficult than swapping springs? Any heads I bought would have springs already installed. I wouldn't have to worry about dropping a lifter or valve if I pulled heads. But heads and cam will likely necessitate new injectors, clutch, headers, etc. With cam only, I wouldn't have to upgrade those things or my shorty headers/high flow mids. That's the biggest issue. Pulling heads brings more work than just swapping them.
Will you be removing your heads to inspect/replace lifters?
Will you be removing your heads to inspect/replace lifters?
OP could make his own adapter out of an old sparkplug. Thats what I did. Just break the porcelin out of the old plug, then drill/tap the plug for either the air hose itself, or a quick disconnect. I used a quick disconnect. I did it myself about 20 years ago. Was the first time I had done it. Lots easier than pulling heads. OTOH, if OP needs new lifters, may as well replace springs on the bench.....
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I've done both. Changing the heads a lot more involved, but if you doing a cam swap at the same time being able to remove the heads and lifters before removing/replacing the cam becomes a lot easier. Changing springs isn't hard, just kind of tedious.
Swapping out springs on a GTO isn't really hard logistically, but changing heads gets a little interesting on the head bolts at the very rear. You have a lot more things to concern yourself with on a head swap like cleaning surfaces, clearing out bolt holes, draining coolant, torques and bolts, etc.
I have a thread on a head swap on LS1GTO which I'm sure you've seen. I did a cam and oil pump and timing chain install along the way. Then when I got it together I found that the springs weren't enough for the cam and had to swap them. I had already done a set of springs on the other GTO so at least I knew what I was doing. The only real trick on spring swaps is having a good springs compressor and keeping track of the lock keepers.
Swapping out springs on a GTO isn't really hard logistically, but changing heads gets a little interesting on the head bolts at the very rear. You have a lot more things to concern yourself with on a head swap like cleaning surfaces, clearing out bolt holes, draining coolant, torques and bolts, etc.
I have a thread on a head swap on LS1GTO which I'm sure you've seen. I did a cam and oil pump and timing chain install along the way. Then when I got it together I found that the springs weren't enough for the cam and had to swap them. I had already done a set of springs on the other GTO so at least I knew what I was doing. The only real trick on spring swaps is having a good springs compressor and keeping track of the lock keepers.
I replaced the valve springs on my L36 (due to a broken spring, bad material from comp cams apparently), heads on the engine and engine in the car, and holy freakin' crap that was a pain in the butt. The driver side bank wasn't too bad but the passenger side on the rear with the heater hoses and all that crap was awful. Can't say I want to ever do that job again. It was only cylinder 1 that had a broken spring but the metallurgy being suspect on all of them (and the new springs being slightly different weight) I wasn't leaving the passenger side as-is. I lucked out that only the very last coil broke so all it did was make a clacky noise and not drop a valve.
Now maybe the way the LS1 sits in there and the heater hoses are run is different, and the passenger rears aren't that bad to get to, IDK. All I know is I never want to do valves springs in-car again. If I ever get around to an LS swap, all head work is happening BEFORE the engine is in the car.
Now maybe the way the LS1 sits in there and the heater hoses are run is different, and the passenger rears aren't that bad to get to, IDK. All I know is I never want to do valves springs in-car again. If I ever get around to an LS swap, all head work is happening BEFORE the engine is in the car.