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None. Mathematician and physicist, not engineer. (pure "knowledge" as opposed to the application of such knowledge to real-world situations) Although, I've made my living as an engineer since the 70s. Math & physics was NOT a marketable skill at that time, since the #1 employment for such people was the space program, but since Apollo was winding down and dumping THOUSANDS of people on the market with the same education as me but with EXPERIENCE, I was completely fornicated. Bad choice of majors at the time; almost like journalism today for example. So I've functioned primarily as an electrical and electronic engineer all these years, with some mechanical thrown in here and there.
I'd be interested in seeing the tooth counts on a 3.46 gear set.
None. Mathematician and physicist, not engineer. (pure "knowledge" as opposed to the application of such knowledge to real-world situations) Although, I've made my living as an engineer since the 70s. Math & physics was NOT a marketable skill at that time, since the #1 employment for such people was the space program, but since Apollo was winding down and dumping THOUSANDS of people on the market with the same education as me but with EXPERIENCE, I was completely fornicated. Bad choice of majors at the time; almost like journalism today for example. So I've functioned primarily as an electrical and electronic engineer all these years, with some mechanical thrown in here and there.
I'd be interested in seeing the tooth counts on a 3.46 gear set.
Motive 3.46 gear set is a 13 pinion and a 45 ring.
Sorry if I caused any grief, just thought people may like the correct information about the ratios in the M80 diff. Being a tech site and all. I made no comment if there was much of a difference between 3.42 and 3.46.
People also fit 4.11 diff gears to the M80 too. I believe they were originally out of a Nissan Skyline but I think MotiveGear now make them as well.
You're fine. Just don't start any thread complaining about Cam Motion cams having soft lobes.....Oh boy, there I go again!!!!
Sorry if I caused any grief, just thought people may like the correct information about the ratios in the M80 diff. Being a tech site and all. I made no comment if there was much of a difference between 3.42 and 3.46.
People also fit 4.11 diff gears to the M80 too. I believe they were originally out of a Nissan Skyline but I think MotiveGear now make them as well.
you caused no grief. Your posts are often a breath of fresh air compared to many people's attitudes. I always appreciate your thoughts and experiences from down under, especially considering we have the same platform (monaro and gto). I've actually.considered getting an Aussie cam from like vcm or crow. Although I'll probably stay local usa made and save a few bucks. I'll be somewhere in your ball park of cam size too. I think you have a 216/220 112+2 tsp cam right? I'll be between 218 and 225 on the intake. I really like the gm hot cam type of split (218/227, 112+2). To me its like a nicely upgraded ls6 cam. We'll see! I might get greedy and go with that 224/230 110+4 Howard cam. Try to get more power almost everywhere!
None. Mathematician and physicist, not engineer. (pure "knowledge" as opposed to the application of such knowledge to real-world situations) Although, I've made my living as an engineer since the 70s. Math & physics was NOT a marketable skill at that time, since the #1 employment for such people was the space program, but since Apollo was winding down and dumping THOUSANDS of people on the market with the same education as me but with EXPERIENCE, I was completely fornicated. Bad choice of majors at the time; almost like journalism today for example. So I've functioned primarily as an electrical and electronic engineer all these years, with some mechanical thrown in here and there.
I'd be interested in seeing the tooth counts on a 3.46 gear set.
funny, I was a math and comp sci major 25 years ago. Only did the math degree because i got calculus AP credit and had to take a bunch of math classes already for CS, so the math major wasn't too much extra. The proof based classes were the worst though. Advanced calc was like that. My only C in college and I didn't even have to take the course. Ironically i miscalculated the courses i needed. Tried to switch to pass/fail just past the deadline and was denied, so I have that C+ staining my transcript lol.
Did some various IT jobs from 2003-2008, was a business analyst from 08-13, network engineer for a year and then my job got off shored. Spent the last ten years a solution engineer. Technically a Solution Architect now. My company grew and grew and now we are off shoring too, which I didn't think would ever happen. Hopefully, I'll be safe because I'm more customer facing and senior now.
You motivated me to do the gear math this past weekend. I was too busy to post but I calculated the 13 and 45 teeth on my own. Nothing else matched up. Glad that my basic math has been vindicated by the Motive spec. I'm surprised you didn't figure that one out yourself to be honest.
you caused no grief. Your posts are often a breath of fresh air compared to many people's attitudes. I always appreciate your thoughts and experiences from down under, especially considering we have the same platform (monaro and gto). I've actually.considered getting an Aussie cam from like vcm or crow. Although I'll probably stay local usa made and save a few bucks. I'll be somewhere in your ball park of cam size too. I think you have a 216/220 112+2 tsp cam right? I'll be between 218 and 225 on the intake. I really like the gm hot cam type of split (218/227, 112+2). To me its like a nicely upgraded ls6 cam. We'll see! I might get greedy and go with that 224/230 110+4 Howard cam. Try to get more power almost everywhere!
Thanks for the kind words. It's awesome getting to talk about this platform, as I'm a huge fan of these cars and LS engines.
Correct, I have an M6 LS1 with a 216/220 .600/.600 112+2 TSP cam, with heavily CNC ported 241 heads and all the other bolt ons. The Crow Cams are really good stuff, my shop uses them exclusively. But yeah, if I were in the USA I would certainly just buy local. You guys are spoilt for choice with amazing Cam manufacturer options!
I really like the TSP cam I have and the combo in general, very punchy on the street. Still did ok at the strip, mid 12s in the stinking heat in 100% street trim many years ago. Just drove it on, chirped to clean my street tyres and launched at around 2200 rpm and off she went. Not for everyone, but I like it.
Cams in the 218/227 range were very popular back in the day. They seem to work well on an LS1. I jumped on that band wagon to replace my prior baby cam and imported a Cam Motion 218/226 .595/.587 116+4 as they recommended for my requirements. Unfortunately it didn't go well for me. Was a real slug in comparison and the dyno reflected that. Excuse the KW and very low figures, our dynos read much lower than the US and this one was extra stingy (and the shops proud of that! ). So, I went back to the a baby cam, the TSP this time.
Thanks for the kind words. It's awesome getting to talk about this platform, as I'm a huge fan of these cars and LS engines.
Correct, I have an M6 LS1 with a 216/220 .600/.600 112+2 TSP cam, with heavily CNC ported 241 heads and all the other bolt ons. The Crow Cams are really good stuff, my shop uses them exclusively. But yeah, if I were in the USA I would certainly just buy local. You guys are spoilt for choice with amazing Cam manufacturer options!
I really like the TSP cam I have and the combo in general, very punchy on the street. Still did ok at the strip, mid 12s in the stinking heat in 100% street trim many years ago. Just drove it on, chirped to clean my street tyres and launched at around 2200 rpm and off she went. Not for everyone, but I like it.
Cams in the 218/227 range were very popular back in the day. They seem to work well on an LS1. I jumped on that band wagon to replace my prior baby cam and imported a Cam Motion 218/226 .595/.587 116+4 as they recommended for my requirements. Unfortunately it didn't go well for me. Was a real slug in comparison and the dyno reflected that. Excuse the KW and very low figures, our dynos read much lower than the US and this one was extra stingy (and the shops proud of that! ). So, I went back to the a baby cam, the TSP this time.
wow yeah that 216 220 cam is better everywhere. This is just my hunch, and i think we talked about this before either here or ls1gto, but I have a feeling that if you had that cammotion cam ground on a 112+4, it would have performed very similarly to the tsp cam.
Cam motion cams are a bit more conservative in their ramp rates compared to tsp. I believe they have a 55 difference between advanced and .050 durations. Tsp is without a doubt 52.
SurprisIngly, the young man who won weingartner's camshaft challenge used standard cammotion lobes. So they can make more power while remaining very valvetrain friendly. TSPs current lobes are also pretty friendly. I might go with the summit 218/227, .600, .600, 112+2 cam. 49 ramp rate though. Has performed great in Richard holdeners tests.
Independent Motorsports in Australia had great results recently with the cammotion little chopper cam (222/232, .595, .587, 108+3). That 108+3 is gnarly and the overlap is kinda high at 11 but the tuner said it was a pretty easy tune.
wow yeah that 216 220 cam is better everywhere. This is just my hunch, and i think we talked about this before either here or ls1gto, but I have a feeling that if you had that cammotion cam ground on a 112+4, it would have performed very similarly to the tsp cam.
Cam motion cams are a bit more conservative in their ramp rates compared to tsp. I believe they have a 55 difference between advanced and .050 durations. Tsp is without a doubt 52.
SurprisIngly, the young man who won weingartner's camshaft challenge used standard cammotion lobes. So they can make more power while remaining very valvetrain friendly. TSPs current lobes are also pretty friendly. I might go with the summit 218/227, .600, .600, 112+2 cam. 49 ramp rate though. Has performed great in Richard holdeners tests.
Independent Motorsports in Australia had great results recently with the cammotion little chopper cam (222/232, .595, .587, 108+3). That 108+3 is gnarly and the overlap is kinda high at 11 but the tuner said it was a pretty easy tune.
The TSP certainly felt better everywhere! Low down and in particular up top as you reved it out. First drive and I was so happy with the car again.
I'm sure you could get similar results to the 216/220 cam out of a similar cam to the 218/226 by tightening up the LSA. For my choice with the 216/220, I was trying to keep the overlap at a certain point to keep the manors where I wanted them. For the 218/226, I just bought what Cam Motion recommended for my needs, which was the Torque Titan on 116+4.
In my experience, there was nothing in it for lobes between TSP and Cam Motion. My valve train actually seemed quieter with the TSP.
Last edited by Pulse Red; Feb 11, 2025 at 12:31 AM.
The TSP certainly felt better everywhere! Low down and in particular up top as you reved it out. First drive and I was so happy with the car again.
I'm sure you could get similar results to the 216/220 cam out of a similar cam to the 218/226 by tightening up the LSA. For my choice with the 216/220, I was trying to keep the overlap at a certain point to keep the manors where I wanted them. For the 218/226, I just bought what Cam Motion recommended for my needs, which was the Torque Titan on 116+4.
In my experience, there was nothing in it for lobes between TSP and Cam Motion. My valve train actually seemed quieter with the TSP.
good to know about the tsp lobes.
Wait so what are the two lines in your dyno graph? Are they the two different cams or just the tsp cam before and after tuning? The lower line really dies off in power up top.
Wait so what are the two lines in your dyno graph? Are they the two different cams or just the tsp cam before and after tuning? The lower line really dies off in power up top.
You read it correctly initially. Green is my current 216/220 TSP, @272.8 rwkw. Red is my previous Cam Motion cam @258.4 rwkw. Only change was the cam, moving from PAC single springs to Crow dual springs and a retune. But yes, the Cam Motion Torque Titan drove exactly as the graph shows, completely died up top. However, I guess it was meant to be a low down performer despite the larger duration.
Im surprised you think 3.42 gears are that small. Usually gto guys with stock gears are good until the cams hit about 230 intake duration. GTO, G8, and f-bodies all with automatics have gears around 2.9, so I thought 3.42 was pretty ample for a smaller cam with low to mid 220s intake duration?
I agree on the 3.42 gear not being small when mated to a 4L60E. Since I'm from the Jurassic period, running a 3.42 gear with the 4L60E equates to a 4.22 gear in a TH350/TH400 vehicle, in 1st gear. So, there's plenty of acceleration available with a 3.42 diff....
Last edited by grinder11; Feb 12, 2025 at 07:14 AM.
I'm surprised you didn't figure that one out yourself to be honest.
I am too, in a way. I just never even considered that a mid-3s gear set might have that many teeth on it. 3.42 for example is 12 & 41, and 3.45 (the older ratio in that rear) is 11 & 38. Didn't bother to check. Made me open my mouth and jam my foot in it. Oh well.
A bit later I'll find the video from independent motorsports where he has some dyno sheets showing some cams in an ls1 and most were stronger than the stock cam everywhere. I'll have to see where the rpms start though. It could have been 2500 or 3000, which obviously doesn't show the very bottom. I'm sticking on the small end anyway. 218 at the smallest and 225 at the biggest always with early ICLs and 110-112 LSAs.
@stockA4 here is the video I referenced. The aftermarket cam lobes are more aggressive, so they have more power than stock even down low sometimes. Honestly from this graph, I'd rather have the 215/233 cam as it's better or equal up to about 5k. The 218/22x cams I've looked at will probably be the ticket.
I run Howard's cams in most of my personal setups with amazing success.
The 2nd cam, 222/225 112 LSA has been a favorite of mine for years. One of those in a gen 4 5.3 with long tubes and a tune did just shy of 430 horsepower on my buddies engine dyno and we made great power on multiple cars on his chassis dyno with it. Its also extremely easy on the valvetrain. I'm putting another one in a car in the next few weeks.
The TSP certainly felt better everywhere! Low down and in particular up top as you reved it out. First drive and I was so happy with the car again.
I'm sure you could get similar results to the 216/220 cam out of a similar cam to the 218/226 by tightening up the LSA. For my choice with the 216/220, I was trying to keep the overlap at a certain point to keep the manors where I wanted them. For the 218/226, I just bought what Cam Motion recommended for my needs, which was the Torque Titan on 116+4.
In my experience, there was nothing in it for lobes between TSP and Cam Motion. My valve train actually seemed quieter with the TSP.
I've actually come around to the idea of using a smaller cam like you for a street car. I'm fairly certain I remember you at one point saying even with your 216/220 cam that you feel very happy with that if you had to do it again, you would go just a little bit smaller. That had me thinking something like the truck norris or chopacabra cams, but I know with positive overlap, that's more than you wanted. However, the summit big torkinator 8728 (212/218, .600, .575, 110+3) is likely right up your alley. In richard holdeners testing, it performed dead even with the truck norris cam while having significantly less overlap at -5. I doubt it's worth you changing cams, but if you ever did, I think it's worth your consideration. It has an intake valve close of 33 compared to your 38, plus with the lower duration, it will be a beast down low, and I bet it would be very close to your cam up too. Summit has fairly aggressive lobes, which is a big part of how they make their power. They have a 49 difference between advertised and .050 durations.
Since I have stock 20 year old lifters in my car, I am going to stay away from .600 lift cams, especially with semi aggressive lobes. The truck norris also has semi aggressive lobes with a 50 difference in advertised and .050 durations, but with .552 lift, it's less if a concern I think. However, the chopacabra would be a little safer with a 53 difference, so I might go that way.
Tie bars I got were nice. I’ve emailed them about several products including the ones I have and they respond daily. They are useful responses and technicals.
I've actually come around to the idea of using a smaller cam like you for a street car. I'm fairly certain I remember you at one point saying even with your 216/220 cam that you feel very happy with that if you had to do it again, you would go just a little bit smaller. That had me thinking something like the truck norris or chopacabra cams, but I know with positive overlap, that's more than you wanted. However, the summit big torkinator 8728 (212/218, .600, .575, 110+3) is likely right up your alley. In richard holdeners testing, it performed dead even with the truck norris cam while having significantly less overlap at -5. I doubt it's worth you changing cams, but if you ever did, I think it's worth your consideration. It has an intake valve close of 33 compared to your 38, plus with the lower duration, it will be a beast down low, and I bet it would be very close to your cam up too. Summit has fairly aggressive lobes, which is a big part of how they make their power. They have a 49 difference between advertised and .050 durations.
Since I have stock 20 year old lifters in my car, I am going to stay away from .600 lift cams, especially with semi aggressive lobes. The truck norris also has semi aggressive lobes with a 50 difference in advertised and .050 durations, but with .552 lift, it's less if a concern I think. However, the chopacabra would be a little safer with a 53 difference, so I might go that way.
Sorry I missed this earlier. You probably have a new cam by now.
It's all personal taste. I've done everything the forum's will tell you doesn't work. Small high lift cam, CNC 241 heads, short headers, no MAF etc... However, the result has been great. I'm still really happy with the result for how I use the car, and for the sound / manors I wanted. It performed better than I ever expected when I started. Particularly as it's only ever been in street trim.
Is it right for anyone else? I can't say. Others may be very disappointed in the dyno sheets.
If doing it again, I would get this cam again. Or similar. I would not rule out going a touch bigger if I could get the valve events right for my needs. A little smaller may add a touch more low down, but I think after a few years, I would stick with what I have instead as the base line size.
However, I may be tempted to try something with a big split too. Like a 214/232 with lots of lift. I considered it at the time. But that would be for my own curiosity.
Last edited by Pulse Red; Aug 10, 2025 at 03:58 AM.
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). So, I went back to the a baby cam, the TSP this time.
