People with AFR heads
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by pdd
that cars got the same mods as me, except i have a bigger cam and igot 37 less hp???? WTF
No disrespect to you pdd, but what is the deal with your mods and the rwhp you got?
Admittedly that is a ton of power but still short of what LAPD and Andy have got off their dynos with the same mods. I was one of the many with credit card in hand ready to purchase the same package you have (except cam). The more I read and research the more confused I have become. There are several others over at Corvette Forum that have gotten results more in line with your numbers (you already know this)I know I will get beat down for saying it BUT it appears that the "individual" is not getting the same results as those from AFR associated vendors.
Let the flaming begin....(Nomex posting suit on
)
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 233
Likes: 1
From: STL, MO
I wish the results of the AFR's were more consistent? I would be pissed if I bought those heads and came up anywhere below 450 rwhp with a mid size cam and all the normal bolt-ons (no offense PDD) I was thinking of damn near the same combo that you went with and I am surprised with the #'s??
PDD, does your car run like a bad *****?
These damn dyno #'s vary so much from place to place, it is hard not to get caught up in all of it..
PDD, does your car run like a bad *****?
These damn dyno #'s vary so much from place to place, it is hard not to get caught up in all of it..
Originally Posted by Neumonic2002
PDD, does your car run like a bad *****?
These damn dyno #'s vary so much from place to place, it is hard not to get caught up in all of it..
PPD - what are you complaining about, your car dyno'd low with old PP "ls6" heads you had as well.
everyone is saying the AFR results are inconsistant but the same can be said about any setup. how many PP "ls6" and tsp 231 combo's put out 474rwhp like gomers, or how many TEA/FM13 setups are putting out 476 like Damian, or who else has been able to hit 450rwhp w/ a Trex besides Jason. the point is the people making power take every little step to make there combo work. its not buy package A install and presto, 450+rwhp.
everyone is saying the AFR results are inconsistant but the same can be said about any setup. how many PP "ls6" and tsp 231 combo's put out 474rwhp like gomers, or how many TEA/FM13 setups are putting out 476 like Damian, or who else has been able to hit 450rwhp w/ a Trex besides Jason. the point is the people making power take every little step to make there combo work. its not buy package A install and presto, 450+rwhp.
Originally Posted by jrp
PPD - what are you complaining about, your car dyno'd low with old PP "ls6" heads you had as well.
how many PP "ls6" and tsp 231 combo's put out 474rwhp like gomers.
how many PP "ls6" and tsp 231 combo's put out 474rwhp like gomers.
like gomer 
TECH Junkie
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,726
Likes: 0
From: Fort Collins, CO
Originally Posted by jrp
PPD - what are you complaining about, your car dyno'd low with old PP "ls6" heads you had as well.
everyone is saying the AFR results are inconsistant but the same can be said about any setup. how many PP "ls6" and tsp 231 combo's put out 474rwhp like gomers, or how many TEA/FM13 setups are putting out 476 like Damian, or who else has been able to hit 450rwhp w/ a Trex besides Jason. the point is the people making power take every little step to make there combo work. its not buy package A install and presto, 450+rwhp.
everyone is saying the AFR results are inconsistant but the same can be said about any setup. how many PP "ls6" and tsp 231 combo's put out 474rwhp like gomers, or how many TEA/FM13 setups are putting out 476 like Damian, or who else has been able to hit 450rwhp w/ a Trex besides Jason. the point is the people making power take every little step to make there combo work. its not buy package A install and presto, 450+rwhp.
Launching!
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
From: Gainesville, Florida
Originally Posted by jrp
a great benefit of the AFR is the better casting to start with; take a bare AFR casting and put them in the hands of a compenent porter, get a cam to match, and i think you will see where they really shine.
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Originally Posted by Grant B
Anyone else find it hard to believe that someone would know how to port AFR's heads better than AFR themselves? Getting better flow with larger CCs I can understand, but flowing better at the same CCs seems hard to believe.
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 233
Likes: 1
From: STL, MO
good point jrp!! that is why we need people out here that have already dynoed there car cam only and at a later date went for a new set of heads from company xyz and show the gains they got from adding the heads.hopefully they were able to use the same dyno!!
Am I asking for to much?
Please don't tell me to do a search, I am always watching
Am I asking for to much?
Please don't tell me to do a search, I am always watching
Originally Posted by Neumonic2002
good point jrp!! that is why we need people out here that have already dynoed there car cam only and at a later date went for a new set of heads from company xyz and show the gains they got from adding the heads.hopefully they were able to use the same dyno!!
Am I asking for to much?
Please don't tell me to do a search, I am always watching
Am I asking for to much?
Please don't tell me to do a search, I am always watching
. i dont have info on the setup but its a cam only vs the added gains of heads. i saved it and a few others to illustrate such points...
this one is a tr230 cam only then the addition of AS stg2 heads, typical bolt ons as well:
Launching!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 233
Likes: 1
From: STL, MO
Thanks jrp, it looks like 35 rwhp is something of a benchmark!
I noticed the first sheet was from 01 and the second from last yr(03), pretty cool to see some consistency in the yr seperation..
I am still hoping to see something in the way of AFR's in this equation.
In a perfect world we would see this comparison with AFR's, GTP, PP, & TEA heads etc..all on the same car with the same cam, but I guess that will never happen.
If I had a million dollars I would do it myself and all people would have to worry about would be who would tune there ride!
I noticed the first sheet was from 01 and the second from last yr(03), pretty cool to see some consistency in the yr seperation..
I am still hoping to see something in the way of AFR's in this equation.
In a perfect world we would see this comparison with AFR's, GTP, PP, & TEA heads etc..all on the same car with the same cam, but I guess that will never happen.
If I had a million dollars I would do it myself and all people would have to worry about would be who would tune there ride!
Launching!
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
From: Gainesville, Florida
jrp, have those results been duplicated with GTP heads? One would think AFR's own CNC program would make the most power, as they supposedly did a lot of R&D with an engine dyno. As I understand it, there are things you can do that will improve flow but not help or possibly hurt power output? Anything that reduces swirl or tumble I guess...
So, what factors do you think distinguish the cars that make great power from all the rest?
Tuning
Compression ratio
M6 trans, 3.42 gears
Degreeing the cam
Measuring deck height and selecting the right thickness HG for optimal quench clearance
All the bolt-ons, no cats, 90mm TB, etc.
Leakdown? Do the cars that burn oil make better power with aftermarket rings?
Lightweight drivetrain components (wheels, clutch, etc).
Dyno correction factors (do the cars that make awsome power back it up with trap speeds?)
Dyno tricks
And then of course there is honesty. I know in the Supra world its pretty common for a vendor (or someone sponsored by a vendor) to bump the dyno numbers up quite a bit. And its a lot easier to do on a turbo car, you can make the turbo seem to spool quicker and make more power. I guess its harder with an NA car, but you can still do the dyno tricks and maybe lie about CR and octane. Hell I guess you could even lie about displacement.
So, what factors do you think distinguish the cars that make great power from all the rest?
Tuning
Compression ratio
M6 trans, 3.42 gears
Degreeing the cam
Measuring deck height and selecting the right thickness HG for optimal quench clearance
All the bolt-ons, no cats, 90mm TB, etc.
Leakdown? Do the cars that burn oil make better power with aftermarket rings?
Lightweight drivetrain components (wheels, clutch, etc).
Dyno correction factors (do the cars that make awsome power back it up with trap speeds?)
Dyno tricks
And then of course there is honesty. I know in the Supra world its pretty common for a vendor (or someone sponsored by a vendor) to bump the dyno numbers up quite a bit. And its a lot easier to do on a turbo car, you can make the turbo seem to spool quicker and make more power. I guess its harder with an NA car, but you can still do the dyno tricks and maybe lie about CR and octane. Hell I guess you could even lie about displacement.
Last edited by Grant B; Oct 10, 2004 at 07:50 PM.
Originally Posted by Grant B
jrp, have those results been duplicated with GTP heads? One would think AFR's own CNC program would make the most power, as they supposedly did a lot of R&D with an engine dyno. As I understand it, there are things you can do that will improve flow but not help or possibly hurt power output? Anything that reduces swirl or tumble I guess...
So, what factors do you think distinguish the cars that make great power from all the rest?
Tuning
Compression ratio
M6 trans, 3.42 gears
Degreeing the cam
Measuring deck height and selecting the right thickness HG for optimal quench clearance
All the bolt-ons, no cats, 90mm TB, etc.
Leakdown? Do the cars that burn oil make better power with aftermarket rings?
Lightweight drivetrain components (wheels, clutch, etc).
Dyno correction factors (do the cars that make awsome power back it up with trap speeds?)
Dyno tricks
And then of course there is honesty. I know in the Supra world its pretty common for a vendor (or someone sponsored by a vendor) to bump the dyno numbers up quite a bit. And its a lot easier to do on a turbo car, you can make the turbo seem to spool quicker and make more power. I guess its harder with an NA car, but you can still do the dyno tricks and maybe lie about CR and octane. Hell I guess you could even lie about displacement.
So, what factors do you think distinguish the cars that make great power from all the rest?
Tuning
Compression ratio
M6 trans, 3.42 gears
Degreeing the cam
Measuring deck height and selecting the right thickness HG for optimal quench clearance
All the bolt-ons, no cats, 90mm TB, etc.
Leakdown? Do the cars that burn oil make better power with aftermarket rings?
Lightweight drivetrain components (wheels, clutch, etc).
Dyno correction factors (do the cars that make awsome power back it up with trap speeds?)
Dyno tricks
And then of course there is honesty. I know in the Supra world its pretty common for a vendor (or someone sponsored by a vendor) to bump the dyno numbers up quite a bit. And its a lot easier to do on a turbo car, you can make the turbo seem to spool quicker and make more power. I guess its harder with an NA car, but you can still do the dyno tricks and maybe lie about CR and octane. Hell I guess you could even lie about displacement.
for my own setup (not complete yet), i have a forged 347 in which i've measured my deck height and pistons out the hole, set my quench to where i want it, flowed my heads w/ a radius plate, ls6 intake, and ls1 intake. i have a 12.04 SCR and DCR will likely check in @ 8.8-9.1. have all the key bolts that i need and can afford anyway. with my heads and custom cam setup im looking to accomplish the goal i set out, and i think i can do it. Tony even made me an offer to let me use his tuner to prove how big of a role tuning plays in a setup.
i dont think its about dishonestly more so then it is about having resources and funds at your disposal and showing you the optimal and potential results of a setup.
Launching!
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
From: Gainesville, Florida
Thats for the info.
I wonder how much can be gained by tuning for the dyno, rather than tuning for real-world conditions. In my experience, tuning a car to make peak power on a dyno does not yield the best power in the real world, especially on pump gas and ESPECIALLY on a turbo car. Dynojet pulls are just too short to simulate a 1/4 mile run, let alone a longer pull.
I wonder how much can be gained by tuning for the dyno, rather than tuning for real-world conditions. In my experience, tuning a car to make peak power on a dyno does not yield the best power in the real world, especially on pump gas and ESPECIALLY on a turbo car. Dynojet pulls are just too short to simulate a 1/4 mile run, let alone a longer pull.
Teching In
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: Windham, NH
Originally Posted by pdd
the cars goes pretty good. dont look at my track times. those were all tire spin and axl tramp. then i broke the rear after only 3 passes
Or did you REPLACE your broken rear with the DTEs?
--Bill
12 Second Club
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
From: Mpls, Minnesota
on the AFR site they tested the 205 heads with a cam and full bolt ons and got 530, sounds like a good number to me, now i'm tryin to find out a lil more on the 225 heads and a good cam to match.
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
From: Earth
Originally Posted by pdd
that cars got the same mods as me, except i have a bigger cam and igot 37 less hp???? WTF
You need to address the lower HP numbers with your builder/tuner.