I just left a voice mail for Tony, I have not been able to call AFR personally due to my work schedule. I would like to thank my installer, Keith, at Force Fed Performance In Yuba City Ca. for handling the situation for me. He spent alot of time trying to figure out what was going on with the heads. He took alot of pix while they were on the car and he even put the heads on a block that was not in a car and took pictures of that. As soon as I can get some copies, I will post them up.

 

Has anyone with AFRs from TSP had an issue free install?

 

For all those that have been monitoring this post about the "AFR" head fitament problem here is the scoop. First off I would like to thank the guys at "AFR" for there speedy service with diagnosing the problem & cooperation. As with all new high performance products you will occassional run into problems after they are first released but it is how the manufacturer handles the problem that counts. In this case there was nothing that "AFR" did wrong except for there precision quality & precise measuremnts. By this I mean that the problem actualy falls on the used intake manifold and NOT the heads. Due to the fact that the intake manifold has been bolted on to 3 prior sets of ported & milled heads it has been slightly warped so it was causing the intake bolt holes to not align up with the holes on the heads. Once a new intake was dropped on the heads everything fit perfect. In order to get the original manifold to fit, the bolt holes had to be reemed out as well as the intake alignment bosses on the heads had to be enlargened to allow the manifold to slightly shift around.
"AFR" acutualy diagnosed the problem and I believe is going to start slightly enlargening the OD of the alignment holes on the heads to help compensate for the wide tolerence differences amoungst the stock used intake manifolds. If you look at the "FAST" manifold it has larger bolt holes than the stock pieces, maybe they did this for this exact reason?
The quick response from "AFR" to acknowledging this problem, diagnosing it, taking care of the customer & plans to help eliminate this for future customers is awesome, what more could you ask for. Hats off to "AFR".

Thanks,
Force Fed Performance

 

Hello Everyone....

First off, let me share some information we found today regarding the manifold fitment problems discussed earlier in this thread. We also, were not able to bolt up the customers used LS6 factory intake when we placed the heads and manifold on our "mock up" block here at AFR after having both the heads and intake overnighted to our facility. The interesting thing, however, was that a brand new LS6 intake, a slightly used LS1 intake, and a brand new FAST intake bolted up without a problem....BUT....what we did notice was that the two factory manifolds did not fit exactly the same. One of them dropped on without a hitch....the other had to be coaxed a little to get all four corner bolts started. We then located a used LS6 intake and that manifold was in between the two factory pieces in terms of "fitment". Bottom line, the GM manifolds are "plastic castings" and much like any other castings,can vary quite a bit in the un-machined areas. We hadn't allowed for that much variation in shoulder size and location in our current spot faces in the head that locate the intake, and will now enlarge those pads in the future so grinding on the manifold won't be necessary in some applications where the tolerances are further away than the norm. Keep in mind, we have already shipped a few hundred pair of AFR 205's and these are the first manifold fitment problems we have come across. We also enlarged the holes slightly in the customers intake to allow more room for the bolts to easily drop in and be tightened by hand. Also of interest is that we noticed that the shoulders of the FAST intake were smaller (to allow more fitting room), and the manifold holes were pre-drilled from Comp larger than the factory and about the same finished size we ended up drilling the customer's intake today....again, to obviously try and minimize any fitment issues from casting variation at FAST as well as differences from various cylinder heads (milled, un-milled etc.). Speaking of milling, another difference with the AFR head is the fact we slightly moved the bolt hole higher up the intake interface to accomodate the frquent requests of customers that want their heads milled for higher compression....this way the intake bolt hole in the cylinder head will still be in the "line of sight" of the manifold holes without having to drill them larger to fit. Tomorrow, we will be sending the customers heads and manifold back fitting perfectly with fresh intake O-rings and a fresh clean up cut on the head deck for a perfect head gasket seal. His shop will receive them Monday, once again, with AFR footing the bill for freight. His shop that is doing the install understands that these kind of things happen from time to time, were simply looking for solutions, and were extremely pleasant and easy to deal with thru the entire process. Kudos to the guys at Force Fed Performance....

This leads me to my second point....IF YOU, THE CUSTOMER, WON'T TAKE THE TIME TO CONTACT US....HOW CAN WE HELP??? The answer is we can't.....Why are these forums of a "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality?? Sometimes it seems more effort is placed posting on the internet then actually trying to contact the manufacturers to help resolve your issues. It's very frustrating if your a manufacturer that truly cares and tries their best at producing and shipping the very best they are capable of....and are willing to stand behind it when it comes to ANY issues that might have originated here.
This is a NEW product....We tried our best to cover any and all conceivable issues that we felt might have come up....we thoroughly tested the product and tried to introduce a complete "package" that would help assure that not only would our customers get the most power for their money, but that it would also bolt on and accept both factory as well as aftermarket components.

We make ourselves available to you guys 24-7 by being a sponsor on this board and trying to respond to all your questions and concerns....You guys can almost be a full time job and I spend alot of my time both at work and at home reading and looking over a handfull of forums making sure things are "running smoothly" and try my best at answering questions from individual PM's or topics in a thread that I feel the "search button" might not get you all the answers.

Guys...give us and for that matter ANY company you might have an issue with their product the oppurtunity to help and make something right....You might find out it wasn't even their fault but perhaps you still got the info you needed to resolve your problems....Save the "negative" posts for companies not willing to help at all....or you feel did not properly address your concerns.
Trust me...MOST companies want to do the right thing if given the chance....slamming them on the internet first is not going to win you alot of points and help solve whatever issues you might be encountering.

Just a little something to think about....

PLEASE contact me directly with ANY issues you might encounter in the future....We look forward to your input, especially if it can help improve our product.

Thank you,
Tony Mamo
AFR Sales / Product Design
(818)890-0616 Ext. 109

 

Great service there. If I can afford AFR's this summer that's what I'll choose and see if I can't get them hand finished. I may have the fastest car on campus...

 

Hats off to AFR for taking care of this situation in a very proffesional matter. They definatly wnet fatrther to take care of the customer then most companies would even think of.

 

Great job guys.
AFR has spent MUCHO time and money making this product right and now their C/S is on the same track.

 

Props to Tony and AFR yet again...

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Some of you folks need to take a step back and figure out what you want. If you want the manufacturers to abandon us and write us all off as a bunch of immature crybabies keep stuff like this up. If you want the Gen III market to thrive, and the mfgs reps to be out here on the interent forums for us, then GROW UP...

Trust me, its alot easier to go make parts for folks who appreciate what you do, and don't go around bashing you with only 1 or 2 bits of information, rather than understanding the whole picture.

Again, I can''t stress enough if you have an issue with a vendor take it to them before you go badmouthing them on the board. If that doesn't work, THEN get on here and make a FACTUAL post about the issue.

 

truer (sp) words have never been spoken, you'd be suprised what some sponsors are willing to do to help you out if all you do is come to them in a calm, rash manner and explain your concern or complaint with them. in this business you can buy comparable products from any sponsor, what seperates them is customer service and Tony has more then stepped up to the plate to bring all the info and potential issues to the table concerning the release of the AFR brand.

speculation and misinformation runs rampant in these forums and you have to look at things from your situation and that of the sponsor. bad press effects business, if its warrented then so be it, but like Tony said theres a "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality. perfect example is the guy that said he broke a PP gold, he came to the table with false information and didnt contact PP before posting the thread. you can see what happended, some people paniced and then start worrying about there PP golds breaking. in the end it turned out they were the old non-gold springs, but by that time damage has already been done.

 

Thanks, Keith and Tony for solving this issue

I hope my posts didn't seem like bashing, I was trying to stay as neutral as possible and to put the issue out there to see if there were others that had the same problem. I asked Force Fed to deal with the situation beause they dealt with it first hand. If I had installed them, I would have dealt with it.
Funny thing is, I was going to put these heads on my car, instead of my girlfriends car. I would have used my LSX manifold with the heads and I would have prolly never had an issue, acording to what I have read above, lol.

Once again, thanx AFR and ForceFed

 

IMHO this worked very well. There was a problem that spellbound wanted to know if anyone else had. This was to see if they did something wrong or how someone else fixed it. Not to bash anyone. AFR picked up the problem very fast. THEY took care of it VERY fast. If I had their heads ready to go on my motor I would want to know if there might be a problem. I will buy AFR heads when I upgrade. Great company Great service. Need I say more?

Now all we need are numbers.

 

This winter when I have heads/cam/headers/intake done on my ride, AFR heads will be the first choice.

I used to work for a guy who always said, "You never judge someone based on their mistakes. you judge them based on what they do to FIX their mistakes." With AFR, it wasn't even their proble, but they stepped up quickly just in case it was their problem.

Very impressive if you ask me....