Shavings in my oil filter again?! (long)
10-08-2004, 12:52 AM
#1
Shavings in my oil filter again?! (long) Let's rewind to last March. I spun two bearings as a result of letting the oil get too low. Other than not physically checking it when I should have, we never really addressed what caused the loss of the oil. I know it wasn't leaking, so I guess that leaves burning.
I purchased a used built block from a guy in PA and got the car back on Easter. He said it had ~3000 miles on the block before it was removed to go with a larger displacement engine. We confirmed it had the components he said it did: Eagle H-beam rods, Wiseco pistons, ARP rod bolts, etc. Only problem with it was that he had used a ATI blower pulley with it and managed to fubar the crank threads which caused a stock bolt to be too short. So he shipped us the same bolt he used and things seem to have been fine. I re-used the CNC heads (circa 1999) I had from the old block, as well as the hardened pushrods. We used his lifters because a) we didn't want my old ones contaminating the new engine and b) I couldn't afford new lifters on top of everything else. We assembled the block on an engine stand. I bought new 918 springs to use with the (unverified) 228/228 cam.
For about a month or so now, I've complained of an intermittent ticking sound only emanating from the driver side wheelwell. The shops and other LS1 owners I asked couldn't hear anything unusual. Thought it might be a damaged catalytic converter on the driver side so I planned on getting a custom y-pipe.
A few weeks ago I missed a shift and I don't know if it fits into the equation or not. After I missed the shift, I dynoed the car and it made about 410rwhp at ~6000RPM, with an AFR of ~12:1 - better than it had in the past on the same engine. So it doesn't seem like it affected the power. The owner did not hear any signs of problems from the misshift when loading the car on the dyno.
At any rate, I started to hear a loud light-metallic ticking coming from the driver side wheelwell immediately AFTER picking up the car from the dealership for a A/C diagnostic this past Saturday.
I take it to a friends house for him to drive/listen and he hears the high-pitch metallic ticking pretty much the entire time the car was operating. Using a screwdriver it seemed like the noise was coming from beneath the intake manifold but he couldn't isolate it. He suggested a lifter but also that I get a second opinion. Definitely said it wasn't exhaust leak nor bottom end due to the frequency. Watched it with Autotap and I would get a spurious misfire, but the history was completely zero on all cylinders. Friend recommended changing the filter and cutting it open.
I went to a local LS1 speed shop the following day but the noise was not heard at all that day under any conditions. Shop couldn't make a recommendation without hearing the noise. He asked how much preload was used and I did not know.
I had the oil changed the following day (yesterday) and I cut it open tonight. Now granted I didn't have ideal tools for the job (tin snips and wire cutters), but I do see flecks in the oil. I've saved some in a plastic bottle, but it's not a large enough quantity to send to an oil lab. My friend indicated it could be part of the lifter(s) wearing. I think I've read that pushrods might do it too (but would hardened ones do it on a mis-shift?)
I've received my new Comp Cam OEM replacement lifters, head bolts, and head gaskets but haven't picked up the coolant yet. I could probably get the heads off by myself (only assisted before), but torquing them down seems like a pain in the *** with the engine in the car. The oil has been changed three times since Easter, and I've been religious about checking the oil. The past two changes I used German-made Castrol 0w30 and the K&N HP2006 filter. I burned about 1/2 quart in 3000 miles this last change. I usually change the oil around 5000 miles. The color of the oil still looked fine on the dipstick.
If I pay a shop for the labor, it'll be $800 potentially down the drain only to find that I've replaced lifters but that the bearings are toast from all the shavings in the oil. The oil pressure has not varied since Easter - it is regularly in the 40-70psi range. Over the last few weeks the engine will hesitate to come above 600RPM's or so when coming to a stop or sometimes during starting. Once it is warmed up it seems to be back to normal.
So it's getting down to the wire whether or not I take the car racing bright and early Saturday morning. 2 hour drive each way and probably 4 one-minute races. So how imperative is it that I replace the lifters/pushrods? I think I already know the answer, but d4mn, it's only been 6 months. Is my bottom-end toast again?
Either I start making payments on another vehicle, or payments on another engine it seems 
I purchased a used built block from a guy in PA and got the car back on Easter. He said it had ~3000 miles on the block before it was removed to go with a larger displacement engine. We confirmed it had the components he said it did: Eagle H-beam rods, Wiseco pistons, ARP rod bolts, etc. Only problem with it was that he had used a ATI blower pulley with it and managed to fubar the crank threads which caused a stock bolt to be too short. So he shipped us the same bolt he used and things seem to have been fine. I re-used the CNC heads (circa 1999) I had from the old block, as well as the hardened pushrods. We used his lifters because a) we didn't want my old ones contaminating the new engine and b) I couldn't afford new lifters on top of everything else. We assembled the block on an engine stand. I bought new 918 springs to use with the (unverified) 228/228 cam.
For about a month or so now, I've complained of an intermittent ticking sound only emanating from the driver side wheelwell. The shops and other LS1 owners I asked couldn't hear anything unusual. Thought it might be a damaged catalytic converter on the driver side so I planned on getting a custom y-pipe.
A few weeks ago I missed a shift and I don't know if it fits into the equation or not. After I missed the shift, I dynoed the car and it made about 410rwhp at ~6000RPM, with an AFR of ~12:1 - better than it had in the past on the same engine. So it doesn't seem like it affected the power. The owner did not hear any signs of problems from the misshift when loading the car on the dyno.
At any rate, I started to hear a loud light-metallic ticking coming from the driver side wheelwell immediately AFTER picking up the car from the dealership for a A/C diagnostic this past Saturday.
I take it to a friends house for him to drive/listen and he hears the high-pitch metallic ticking pretty much the entire time the car was operating. Using a screwdriver it seemed like the noise was coming from beneath the intake manifold but he couldn't isolate it. He suggested a lifter but also that I get a second opinion. Definitely said it wasn't exhaust leak nor bottom end due to the frequency. Watched it with Autotap and I would get a spurious misfire, but the history was completely zero on all cylinders. Friend recommended changing the filter and cutting it open.
I went to a local LS1 speed shop the following day but the noise was not heard at all that day under any conditions. Shop couldn't make a recommendation without hearing the noise. He asked how much preload was used and I did not know.
I had the oil changed the following day (yesterday) and I cut it open tonight. Now granted I didn't have ideal tools for the job (tin snips and wire cutters), but I do see flecks in the oil. I've saved some in a plastic bottle, but it's not a large enough quantity to send to an oil lab. My friend indicated it could be part of the lifter(s) wearing. I think I've read that pushrods might do it too (but would hardened ones do it on a mis-shift?)
I've received my new Comp Cam OEM replacement lifters, head bolts, and head gaskets but haven't picked up the coolant yet. I could probably get the heads off by myself (only assisted before), but torquing them down seems like a pain in the *** with the engine in the car. The oil has been changed three times since Easter, and I've been religious about checking the oil. The past two changes I used German-made Castrol 0w30 and the K&N HP2006 filter. I burned about 1/2 quart in 3000 miles this last change. I usually change the oil around 5000 miles. The color of the oil still looked fine on the dipstick.
If I pay a shop for the labor, it'll be $800 potentially down the drain only to find that I've replaced lifters but that the bearings are toast from all the shavings in the oil. The oil pressure has not varied since Easter - it is regularly in the 40-70psi range. Over the last few weeks the engine will hesitate to come above 600RPM's or so when coming to a stop or sometimes during starting. Once it is warmed up it seems to be back to normal.
So it's getting down to the wire whether or not I take the car racing bright and early Saturday morning. 2 hour drive each way and probably 4 one-minute races. So how imperative is it that I replace the lifters/pushrods? I think I already know the answer, but d4mn, it's only been 6 months. Is my bottom-end toast again?
Either I start making payments on another vehicle, or payments on another engine it seems Last edited by JimMueller; 10-08-2004 at 01:01 AM.
10-08-2004, 06:31 AM
#3
TECH Enthusiast
Originally Posted by max's dad
How is your oil pressure, both hot and cold?
Also what length pushrods are in the car. I'm gathering that you have stock lifters and stock rocker arms?
10-08-2004, 07:37 AM
#4
Stock rocker arms, hardened 7.4" pushrods. Off the top of my head I don't recall if we used the rockers from my old engine or if we used them from another donor engine to reduce contamination.
I don't know if they are stock GM lifters. Are there are any distinguishing marks? I'm pretty sure they are OEM-style, though.
There was discussion that (if anything) my previous Comp Cams 218/226 527/535 (ground in 1999) cam might have had a larger base circle than stock, and my current cam 228/228 575/575 (supposedly from ARE) has a smaller base circle than stock. Thus needing different length pushrods than what I have. The heads are supposedly milled .030. The new 918 springs were installed but I don't know if the installed height or rocker preload was checked (nor if it was necessary).
The oil pressure sits around 40-50psi at idle, and sometimes climbs as high as 60-70psi during acceleration. I'll check again on the way to work, but I believe the oil pressure builds quickly when I accelerate.
I don't know if they are stock GM lifters. Are there are any distinguishing marks? I'm pretty sure they are OEM-style, though.
There was discussion that (if anything) my previous Comp Cams 218/226 527/535 (ground in 1999) cam might have had a larger base circle than stock, and my current cam 228/228 575/575 (supposedly from ARE) has a smaller base circle than stock. Thus needing different length pushrods than what I have. The heads are supposedly milled .030. The new 918 springs were installed but I don't know if the installed height or rocker preload was checked (nor if it was necessary).
The oil pressure has not varied since Easter - it is regularly in the 40-70psi range.
10-08-2004, 07:53 AM
#5
TECH Enthusiast
Pre-Load is a key item, I'd make sure that you have the proper length pushrod in there for starters and go from there. That could explain some of your drivetrain noise.
As far as the shavings in the pan, that is most likely bearing material which means something is going away on you. What do the shavings look like? How large are they?
As far as the shavings in the pan, that is most likely bearing material which means something is going away on you. What do the shavings look like? How large are they?
10-08-2004, 08:30 AM
#6
The oil pressure starts out at almost 60psi cold, and goes slightly past 60psi at cruise. Getting further into the throttle it'll go up to about 70psi. When the engine starts to warm, the idle psi drops to about 45psi.
I purchased a pushrod length checker but it didn't exactly come with directions nor the marks on the edge I read it would have.
I haven't rubbed the oil between my fingers, but to me glitter would be a more accurate term than shavings.
I purchased a pushrod length checker but it didn't exactly come with directions nor the marks on the edge I read it would have.
I haven't rubbed the oil between my fingers, but to me glitter would be a more accurate term than shavings.
10-08-2004, 02:04 PM
#7
Stopped by Next Level (fka Norris Motorsports) over lunch. He can see the speckles and indicates the quantity isn't real bad. But, the specks look like it came off a rotating component. So either the bottom end or the lifter roller I suppose.
If there wasn't anything wrong with them, how much could I sell the used Eagle H-beam rods & Wiseco pistons for - in case I lean towards a completely different block?
If there wasn't anything wrong with them, how much could I sell the used Eagle H-beam rods & Wiseco pistons for - in case I lean towards a completely different block?
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10-08-2004, 07:05 PM
#9
What's the install procedure for lifters, excluding R&Ring heads, etc? The little pamphlet which came with them said to clean them in mineral spirits or parts washing solvent. Anyone care to elaborate on what I need to buy, where to get it, and what procedure to follow?
10-08-2004, 08:48 PM
#10
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If you call Blackstone labs, they know of a guy that can analyze oil filter pleats. If you have one of the filter pleats, you can throw it in a plastic baggie and send it to blackstone and they'll get him to analyze it for you... I want to say it's like $10.
tel: 260-744-2380
tel: 260-744-2380
10-09-2004, 12:56 PM
#11
I've still got the filter element. Maybe I'll pursue that.
On another note, I pulled the valve covers, and this is what I found:
Pushrods: No damage, no length stamped on them, no noticeable grit/specks/etc.
Rocker arms: No damage, no noticeable grit/specks/etc.
Rocker arm bolts: One head is a bit mangled, almost all have grit and some have some hard black specks, and others had a couple of tiny silver-colored pieces of metal
Rocker pedestal: Rocker arm bolt holes contain some grit, other than that they look OK.
Top of head: No noticeable specks/filings/grit in the oil puddles.
The rocker bolts were locktited down. Can this grit/shavings easily get in/out of the bolt holes after the bolts are tightened down? I guess I'm wondering if we can determine if it was like that during installation, or if it was contaminated later. If it was done during installation, can this grit 'get out' of the bolt hole.
Th next thing I was contemplating was replacing the lifters. I think I have all the parts & tools, but I'm worried about being burly enough to install new head bolts. Plus I'm doing this in an apartment parking lot and they may b1tch if I spill a bunch of coolant. I don't have other transportation for emergency use, etc. Actually, I didn't buy a new water pump gaskets...is that an issue?
What do you guys think? I'm not a real burly guy, so most of my concerns relate to putting things back together. Although, I've never had a problem getting things apart
On another note, I pulled the valve covers, and this is what I found:
Pushrods: No damage, no length stamped on them, no noticeable grit/specks/etc.
Rocker arms: No damage, no noticeable grit/specks/etc.
Rocker arm bolts: One head is a bit mangled, almost all have grit and some have some hard black specks, and others had a couple of tiny silver-colored pieces of metal
Rocker pedestal: Rocker arm bolt holes contain some grit, other than that they look OK.
Top of head: No noticeable specks/filings/grit in the oil puddles.
The rocker bolts were locktited down. Can this grit/shavings easily get in/out of the bolt holes after the bolts are tightened down? I guess I'm wondering if we can determine if it was like that during installation, or if it was contaminated later. If it was done during installation, can this grit 'get out' of the bolt hole.
Th next thing I was contemplating was replacing the lifters. I think I have all the parts & tools, but I'm worried about being burly enough to install new head bolts. Plus I'm doing this in an apartment parking lot and they may b1tch if I spill a bunch of coolant. I don't have other transportation for emergency use, etc. Actually, I didn't buy a new water pump gaskets...is that an issue?
What do you guys think? I'm not a real burly guy, so most of my concerns relate to putting things back together. Although, I've never had a problem getting things apart
Last edited by JimMueller; 10-09-2004 at 01:05 PM.
10-10-2004, 12:54 PM
#12
I don't see anything wrong with the passenger side lifters. Although that really doesn't surprise me since the noise primarily comes from the drivers side wheelwell.
The passenger header is not completely liberated, but is resting on the ground. Cleaned up the passenger gasket surfaces, piston, lifter guides, and head. Still need to grind down an old header bolt, soak up the coolant in the bolt holes, and then clean out the bolt holes on the passenger side. What do you use to clean the combustion chamber on the heads?
I'm having a problem getting the driver side header relocated so I can remove the rear lower three head bolts. It's not yet touching the ground. I've tried jacking the bottom of the engine slightly and that moved it a bit, but still not enough clearance. Do I need to remove the driver side engine mount bolt to get more clearance?
I'm taking my lunch break now and hopefully someone will chime in
The passenger header is not completely liberated, but is resting on the ground. Cleaned up the passenger gasket surfaces, piston, lifter guides, and head. Still need to grind down an old header bolt, soak up the coolant in the bolt holes, and then clean out the bolt holes on the passenger side. What do you use to clean the combustion chamber on the heads?
I'm having a problem getting the driver side header relocated so I can remove the rear lower three head bolts. It's not yet touching the ground. I've tried jacking the bottom of the engine slightly and that moved it a bit, but still not enough clearance. Do I need to remove the driver side engine mount bolt to get more clearance?
I'm taking my lunch break now and hopefully someone will chime in
10-10-2004, 11:03 PM
#14
d4mmit!! 
Passenger side is complete.
I've been fighting with the driver header for hours. I finally got the last remaining bolt completely loose, but the header flange prevents me from pulling it out. It's only about a 1/4" I need to move the friggin thing, too.
So I think, OK, I have no choice but to remove the alternator so I can take out the driver engine mount. Did that, but I cannot get anything on the nut side of the bolt (again, primarily blocked by the header).
The header seems to be effectively jammed between the steering linkage and the firewall. I've tried jacking up the motor and the tranny at different locations to try to tilt the engine away from the header. At this point I'm tempted to break out the dremel and cut the head off the bolt. Doesn't help me put it back on, but one step at a time!
Help!
Passenger side is complete.
I've been fighting with the driver header for hours. I finally got the last remaining bolt completely loose, but the header flange prevents me from pulling it out. It's only about a 1/4" I need to move the friggin thing, too.
So I think, OK, I have no choice but to remove the alternator so I can take out the driver engine mount. Did that, but I cannot get anything on the nut side of the bolt (again, primarily blocked by the header).
The header seems to be effectively jammed between the steering linkage and the firewall. I've tried jacking up the motor and the tranny at different locations to try to tilt the engine away from the header. At this point I'm tempted to break out the dremel and cut the head off the bolt. Doesn't help me put it back on, but one step at a time!
Help!
10-10-2004, 11:51 PM
#15
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WOW. Don't cut anything. 
Take your time buddy. Sometimes these things take longer then expected.
Can you not remove the steering linkage? Use common sense here. There has to be a way to free the header.
Take your time buddy. Sometimes these things take longer then expected.
Can you not remove the steering linkage? Use common sense here. There has to be a way to free the header.
10-11-2004, 12:48 AM
#16
I finally got the phricking bolt out (without cutting ). Lifters in, gasket surfaces cleaned, pistons cleaned. I'm not sure I'll have the patience yet tonight to clean the bolt holes. But I definitely don't see getting that header re-attached before work.
). Lifters in, gasket surfaces cleaned, pistons cleaned. I'm not sure I'll have the patience yet tonight to clean the bolt holes. But I definitely don't see getting that header re-attached before work. 
10-11-2004, 05:40 AM
#18
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Did you roll the pushrods on flat glass? Test to see how smoothly the valves go in and out of the head. Mine was making noise and several of the valvestems ended up being bent, as they were very difficult to move in and out of the head.
Could be piston slap too
Peace,
Josh
Could be piston slap too
Peace,
Josh
10-11-2004, 09:24 AM
#19
Wouldn't I effectively need to remove the valvesprings to check for a bent valvestem? There weren't any unusual marks on the pistons nor valves indicating they are kissing.
I forgot to roll the passenger side pushrods, but I'll at least do the driver side. I haven't heard of anyone bending hardened pushrods.
Piston slap is a lower pitch than what I have.
I forgot to roll the passenger side pushrods, but I'll at least do the driver side. I haven't heard of anyone bending hardened pushrods.
Piston slap is a lower pitch than what I have.
10-11-2004, 09:45 AM
#20
Yes, you need to remove the valvesprings to check the valves. And I bent a hardened pushrod when my valve spring broke. It also bent my valve; when you 'twirl' it in it's hole in the head and look from the seat position, you can see how out of whack it is.