max's dad

I talked to Kevin from SLP today. He said they had never seen the smoking issue on any of their test motors. He wanted the part and tuning specs, and is talking to their engine builder. This is the first "real world" results for this motor program, and I'd like to think they would want to take care of a defective product. I'll keep posting the updates.

horsepower

Guys,

I have read the posts and hope we can clear things up - I am gathering info and facts on the engine build and have been in contact with Mike at Rapid. Basically, there is no clear answer right now as to the source of the problem - but we're looking into it a step at a time. Some of the facts so far:

According to Rapid (installer), the vehicle was lightly customer driven for break-in; There are several ways to break-in (seat rings) in a new engine - and I can respect that. I'd typically recommend a solid 40 minutes dyno time, with about 50% throttle and 3500 RPM (assuming you have oil temp and coolant temp control). During this time, rings will seat (as you'll watch torque creep up during the process). Once torque levels off, you're seated. Of course, for most shops - some other means of break-in must be substituted unless a dyno brake is available. Typically, if rings are not seated properly after startup and the cylinder walls glaze/harden – they probably will be very very difficult to get to seat. The good news is that it is typically not very difficult to get a good seat on street motors and street rings.

No smoke was visible until they started dyno tuning (doing WOT pulls basically). Mike said the smoke is only at WOT and especially after WOT. Nothing at part throttle and nothing outside of WOT.

Sounds like the tuning is on the money and the power numbers look good - so I don't think tuning is an issue. Mike said testing results were really smooth - no obvious spiking or fluttering you'd get with ring flutter or similar.

This particular setup is running valve cover breathers opposed to intake-PCV. From my testing, this is not optimal on LS1. I even tried header scavenged CV on LS1. Intake-PCV is definitely recommended. At WOT, the differences may be minimal, but once you let of the gas, you sure get a nice shot of vacuum in your crankcase; this helps any number of things. Lets hope the breather are at least breathing - if you "plug" the engine it'll pop gaskets and push oil out on pull one, guaranteed.

Not sure how oiling and oil control (seals/guides) are on the AFR's - anyone have experience or taken one apart?

As for construction - yes, these are all hand made here in NJ, but SLP. These are not farmed out. Every piston ring is individually measured and match ground to each respective bore. On the NA's, we run .017 and .019+ on ring 1 and 2, respectively. So far, this has proven good.

There are no secrets on the internals (eagle crank/rods, ross pistons/rings, etc) - call any salesman at SLP and they'll answer all questions. Not sure where or when this rumor started, but is has always been rumor, not fact.

We are working with Mike to get some more details and test results on the car – we’ll get to the bottom of it –

Best regards,
Brian

gomer

iTrader: (13)

I tuned a car a few weeks ago that had the smoke at WOT on the dyno and loads when getting off the gas on the dyno. It was a fresh local H/C job, I pulled the valve covers to change the valve seals and guess what??? The valve seals were missing off one cylinder. Stuck seals on it and all smoke was gone, the car didn't smoke any at cruise, just WOT and "coast down" on the dyno in gear.

Viper

iTrader: (6)

"The good news is that it is typically not very difficult to get a good seat on street motors and street rings."

What's the best method? I just got an LPE shortblock and will be putting together the engine over the winter.

I REALLY want to make sure I seat the rings properly as well as valve-spring break in.

Thanks

To max's_dad, I hope you get everything cleared up quickly!!

mikey

iTrader: (6)

Hmmmm...Interesting Gomer. Maybe something to look at. I did a leakdown on the motor and it is fine in that regard.

cyclerage

iTrader: (59)

I was looking at the ZL-402 as well. I was on the phone with Art for a bit and it sounded good, but I wanted to see some good track #'s before comitting. Where is the dyno graph posted?
Do you have any blow by or excessive crankcase pressure? Did you have to cut the pistons? Does the front of your car sit lower or ride different?
thanks
J

TVWilkes

That wasn't just smoke,lol...there is no more bugs around here any more.

vmax1500

There is an article about the ZL402 in the F-Body magazine section of my webpage @ www.avigdor.net ...

XLR8NSS

iTrader: (4)

The breather system on the valve covers almost sounds like the culprit behind this smoking. I believe Tony(Nineball) tried a setup like that on his 434 at one point and had a geyser of oil cover his engine as he went down the track.

Any chance of hooking up the stock PCV system and running it that way? A top engine clean might be necessary to get any residual oil outta the intake/head ports before coming to a conclusion.

mikey

iTrader: (6)

He has aftermarket valve covers so I would need to make up a custom PCV system. I would be surprised if that was it though. Before going to a vac pump, I ran breathers (2) for two years and not a hint of smoke. Worth a shot at this point, right?

horsepower

Yes, the PCV is a good thing to run in general (rather than breathers), but I also would be surprised if that *was* the problem – unless somehow it was sending the rings into a frenzy from crankcase pressure (but the dyno testing was smooth and good numbers). I did have a similar blowout to Nineball's on our dyno once when we were playing around with pcv, breathers, scavenge - it was ugly; tends to happen at WOT and make a god-awful mess. We actually plugged the valve covers to measure the effect/impact of pressure in the crankcase – it cost a significant amount of power (remembering something like 20-40hp) and then popped a seal at top speed – sending oil all over. I was intrigued by GM’s attention to ‘bay breathing’ when the LS6 block arrived, so I had just had to play around and see what was up

I am thinking (actually hoping since it would be an easy fix) that popping the valve covers off and getting a look at the valve seals or how oil is moving and draining up top. At WOT, these things toss a lot of oil up to the heads; if it is pouring over the valves from the rocker….this could be something to check out. The fact that it is only at WOT is interesting?

vmax1500

SLP should really consider offering a complete turn key long block... it would take a lot of guess work out of the equation as well give most people alot more confidence in this product and SLP. Something in $6K range that comes with an engine dyno report.

I think the $3600 shortblock deal is very fair... but the product is really unproven and has so far not been getting a lot of positive real world feedback. Most large shops are pushing thier own products and are not that keen on putting together an SLP package, and to make matters worse SLP themselves will not sell an assembled long block.

CHRISPY

put a stock PCV setup on it and retest. I bet the breathers are causing either too much crankcase pressure or ring flutter. on the transition for WOT to decel on the dyno

I have seen this before.

throw on a stock PCV setup with catchcan (if possible, though a catchcan isnt absolutely necessary for testing)

I bet it'll make a big difference.

Cheers,
Chris

max's dad

I have push in breather style PCV valves with nipples. At first, I was going to run the PCV from the driver side valve cover to the intake, and run a breather on the passenger side. I also thought about gutting the PCV from the nippled breathers, joining them with hoses at a T fitting, and connecting to the intake with the stock PCV. Has anyone tried the first option?

PREDATOR-Z

I've tried this on my old 99 TA back in the days info was little. 2 MOPAR nipple breathers to a Greddy catch can and to intake PCV valve. Reduced oil in intake a lot and no smoking. This was on a 12:1 346cid fresh build up.

max's dad

Thanks for the info.. Would just running a PCV valve from the driver's side to the intake be enough?

PREDATOR-Z

The reason I like to run them on both sides is to equalise pressure relief, so not to have one side of the motor releasing more than the other.
I would run them to a Y or T line >Catch can> to the intake. But again that is just me.

beardWS6

iTrader: (1)

Research is everything. Thanks fellas!! Thats the good thing about most post. Very constructive. Learning alot from you guys. Thanks!