Stock Verter and Manifolds which Cam??
Thread Starter
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From: Santa Clarita, CA
Stock Verter and Manifolds which Cam?? 02 Formula, lid-catback car, going with AFR 205 Heads, keeping everything else stock for all intents and purposes. Want a cam with near stock idle and drivability. Goal for the car: consistant 110+ traps in 80 degree near sea level air. Not sure where the car (stock) shifts as is, but wouldn't want to bump it more than 400 rpm.
I had this cam back in '99. It was awesome. It should meet your needs:
MTI A1 209/216 .533/.552 116LSA
Huge increase in torque, nice idle, and a good jump in top end.
Nowadays with the new grinds, I would choose something a little bigger:
216/224, .560/.560 114LSA (faster ramps should give it similar idle, but a nice jump in power over the A1). If you were running long tubes, I would not recommend such a wide split in cam pattern, but with stock manifolds, you will run better with a little more exhaust bias.
MTI A1 209/216 .533/.552 116LSA
Huge increase in torque, nice idle, and a good jump in top end.
Nowadays with the new grinds, I would choose something a little bigger:
216/224, .560/.560 114LSA (faster ramps should give it similar idle, but a nice jump in power over the A1). If you were running long tubes, I would not recommend such a wide split in cam pattern, but with stock manifolds, you will run better with a little more exhaust bias.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
Last edited by Patrick G; Nov 24, 2004 at 08:27 PM.
Thread Starter
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From: Santa Clarita, CA
Originally Posted by jrp
whats your reservation about a new TC?
Patrick G, thank you for the insight. Think I would go slower with a even split cam like the Stealth I, 220-220? Realize it has more lift at .580 but, this gets to the heart of another question I have, since I will have stock manifolds should I only look for exhaust biased cams? I am completely open to a custom cam as well. My crude understanding is more fuel and air, I guess how much fuel would my setup handle before going backwards, and should be considered, and is, but not to many people are opting for a configuration like mine, so looking for help.
You will be very borderline idling in gear with a 216 cam. A 220 cam is a definite no-no in my book with a stock converter. You will want the idle speed raised from 550 in drive to at least 650 with a 216 cam. With a 220 cam, you'd probably need more like 700 rpm in drive. At 700 rpm in drive, the stock converter starts pulling against the brakes.
If you decide to go looser on converter, you can go a hair wilder on the cam.
It's my opinion, that you need to have a more biased exhaust lobe when running stock manifolds and closed exhaust. It's the way GM builds them and the way Lingenfelter would recommend them for a daily driver with stock converter. I've been kicking around a similar combination for my car, but I would probably go a little wilder on the cam since I have a 6 speed (but still stock exhaust manifolds). I've definitely put a lot of thought into your question, so don't think I'm just giving you a wild *** guess.
If you decide to go looser on converter, you can go a hair wilder on the cam.
It's my opinion, that you need to have a more biased exhaust lobe when running stock manifolds and closed exhaust. It's the way GM builds them and the way Lingenfelter would recommend them for a daily driver with stock converter. I've been kicking around a similar combination for my car, but I would probably go a little wilder on the cam since I have a 6 speed (but still stock exhaust manifolds). I've definitely put a lot of thought into your question, so don't think I'm just giving you a wild *** guess.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
I agree, a converter would drop ET a lot more than a cam, but ArcticFormula set the rules. Oh, and by the way...this baby cam would give around a 30 rwhp boost to the tires, even with stock manifolds. I wouldn't classify that as a minor hp boost (unless you're a nitrous junkie, LOL).
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
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Thread Starter
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Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Santa Clarita, CA
Have read the posts carefully, that really sucks if the idle will have to be bumped up with strain on brakes (not a good option for me). Looks like I'm off to the Trans Section again to see who makes the most efficient converter. Patrick, you have very succiently stated a couple of my concerns, that the idle on a cam to reach my goals might need to be raised creating a problem using the stock verter. I really appreciate the input! I guess now the question for me is how much stall and how low an STR can I get away with to run the cam I need with a say 700 rpm idle or less, as I want the most efficient converter money can buy (arrrahhhhgg I just want horsepower).
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FYI, I am using a small cam, CompCams 206/212 .515/.522 112, with stock converter & exhaust manifolds. Runs fine with stock tune. I can feel a power increase from idle thru the mid range. It is much easier to get low 1.9 to hi 1.8 60 ft times now. Power up top feels like stock. I gained 3mph in the 1/8, but only 1 mph in the 1/4 traps from it. Can't seem to better 108.4 mph. I only removed the spare & jack and run with 1/4 tank gas. With more weight reduction, I should see 109s. I weigh 240lbs. If I had a 140 lb. driver, then I think 110 mph would be doable with my setup.
The other cam that I think could get you there would be the 212/218 114 cam.
The other cam that I think could get you there would be the 212/218 114 cam.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: BFE
Lingenfelter GT2
Or I might get shot for this one but I've used it before
216/220, .525/.532 114 COMP Cam XR269HR . Very tame and good power, I made 400 rwhp with it H/C, pulley and LT's on M6.
Or I might get shot for this one but I've used it before
216/220, .525/.532 114 COMP Cam XR269HR . Very tame and good power, I made 400 rwhp with it H/C, pulley and LT's on M6.
Last edited by PREDATOR-Z; Nov 25, 2004 at 12:13 AM.
Don't close the door on the converter idea. IMHO it isn't an option, but a necessity. I know you have your goal, but I just can't see spending the $$$ on heads/cam, and not having the supporting mods (converter, headers, etc) to go with them. To me you've got everything backwards, but it's your car, your money, and your idea, so good luck. 
On The Tree
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ArticFormula: If I've learned anything it is do it right the first time. Get a good converter and a TR224/114 cam. If you play with the idle and use a quiet exhaust plus stock manifolds it is really hard to hear. Great power everywhere. A 3500 stall is a pleasure to daily drive, way more fun than stock.
TECH Addict
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From: Central, MA
FWIW, I ran a TR220-112 in my near stock 6.0 (stock except for cat-back and my own backyard tuning). I was able to get it to idle nice and solid at 600rpm in gear. Out of gear, I normally left it around 650 or so.
The IAC and throttle follower in my drive by wire throttle body would sometimes bite me and give me idling fits when pulling up to a stop - but I get that now with my 210/218 112 when the computer goes through it's little (alleged) learning process after I mess with things.
Also, for what it's worth, I love the 210/218 .531/.531 112 cam I have in there now. It's a VHP grind that I've been ranting and raving about.
Power from 1,900-6,000. Lots of low end. It's a little soft under 1,500 rpm which I can feel with my stock converter when I'm putting around taking it easy, or driving with the stock lockup points of 35mph. It would be BARELY noticeable in a nice lightweight car. Anytime you put your foot into it with any sort of authority it easily gets past that soft area and pulls very sharply. I'm able to flash my stock converter to 2,100, if that's any idication of the low end power available.
It's a fun street cam. It's nice to float in an out of the area where the cam wakes up between 1,700 and 1,900 or so - the exhaust note changes and you feel the torque pick up.
This cam, cat back, e-fans, and my crappy tuning got my slug of a truck at full street weight (5,400lbs?) and 3/4 tank of gas down the track at 14.5 at 92 with a 2.13 60'.
The IAC and throttle follower in my drive by wire throttle body would sometimes bite me and give me idling fits when pulling up to a stop - but I get that now with my 210/218 112 when the computer goes through it's little (alleged) learning process after I mess with things.
Also, for what it's worth, I love the 210/218 .531/.531 112 cam I have in there now. It's a VHP grind that I've been ranting and raving about.
Power from 1,900-6,000. Lots of low end. It's a little soft under 1,500 rpm which I can feel with my stock converter when I'm putting around taking it easy, or driving with the stock lockup points of 35mph. It would be BARELY noticeable in a nice lightweight car. Anytime you put your foot into it with any sort of authority it easily gets past that soft area and pulls very sharply. I'm able to flash my stock converter to 2,100, if that's any idication of the low end power available.
It's a fun street cam. It's nice to float in an out of the area where the cam wakes up between 1,700 and 1,900 or so - the exhaust note changes and you feel the torque pick up.
This cam, cat back, e-fans, and my crappy tuning got my slug of a truck at full street weight (5,400lbs?) and 3/4 tank of gas down the track at 14.5 at 92 with a 2.13 60'.
Last edited by marc_w; Nov 29, 2004 at 02:12 PM.
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For real, AFR 205's and a cam on stock TC and exhaust? You're gonna choke the crap out of your setup and not even come close to using its full potential.
FWIW, if you're dead set on leaving everything stock, go with my cam in sig. Comp 212/218 114. Great torque and acceptable top end.
FWIW, if you're dead set on leaving everything stock, go with my cam in sig. Comp 212/218 114. Great torque and acceptable top end.
Thread Starter
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From: Santa Clarita, CA
I've gone back and forth on the stock TC thing. I'm looking at the TCI 3000 now or maybe something a bit milder. The extra expense is going to push my install date into February. Appreciate all of the responses. Can't wait for spring 
TECH Addict
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From: Central, MA
With the power I'm getting out of my very mild setup, I think a converter will be one of my last mods. It's just not _needed_ and I actually like the tightness of the stocker.
I've got a Yank 2600 (the mild 2800 for you F-bod guys) sitting at home - I just have no desired to put it in.
I've got a Yank 2600 (the mild 2800 for you F-bod guys) sitting at home - I just have no desired to put it in.
Originally Posted by ArcticFormula
Cost issue/drivability thing. Really don't want to fork over the cash for a converter/transcooler right now. Looking for horsepower first.
BTW, the time in my sig is with the 3500 stall, headers, TR224, untuned, ~3650 raceweight. That's using 275 Nitto DRs.
If you have an A4, the mods sequence should be headers, converter, cam. I talk from experience.
