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Old 11-29-2004, 01:21 AM
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well if they're balanced with a SBC an iron-block, aluminum-head LSx should do you fine. Especially if you build a nice low-compression 408 for forced induction. The recommendation of the LS2 was a good one. If you want to spin the motor high, get a larger bore and a de-stroked crank and you should be able to hit 9Krpm without trouble.
Old 11-29-2004, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by narcszm
well if they're balanced with a SBC an iron-block, aluminum-head LSx should do you fine. Especially if you build a nice low-compression 408 for forced induction. The recommendation of the LS2 was a good one. If you want to spin the motor high, get a larger bore and a de-stroked crank and you should be able to hit 9Krpm without trouble.
Good suggestions. I was originally planning a 377 ci SBC using a 400 block with 350 mains and 350 crank. Then, I got to thinking about carb vs. fuel injection and FI won. That's when I started looking at Gen-3. Now that I have discovered this forum, I think this is almost certainly the way to go. I just finished reading a book about titled "LS1/LS6 Performance" by Christopher P. Endres. Great book! Now, I have to read up on the LS2. Do you happen to have any good links for that?
Old 11-29-2004, 01:56 AM
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The LS2 is basically an aluminum version of the 6.0L iron truck block. Retains the same bearing bores as it's Gen3 brothers, but has a 4" bore The knock sensor location and type has changed, along w/ the location of the cam sensor. This poses a couple wiring and tuning changes, but nothing to major.

the block and crank strength are really not an issue. I'm running both stock pieces at probably double the power level your after. Spinning it beyond 8k will be the task at hand. How long do you plan to have it there? Sustained high speeds will need serious valvetrain parts to live. Short blasts and you can get away with alot.

I personally am awaiting Factory Five to release the GTM, their equivelent to the GTR. Mid engine designed around the LS1 and C5 running gear w/ Porsche transaxle. I've already got the twin setup in my head for it Yes, it's an addiction
Old 11-29-2004, 03:03 AM
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I think SDC has new blocks for $995! You really need to go to the "for sale" section for a block and crank there. You should be able to get one cheap there. Even with a new cast, have a competent machine shop check it and do the machine work. Even new, they dont use a torque plate when finishing the blocks at factory so soon after you could run into some issues later. You can use the stock crank, lots do, but I am sure your not interested in rebuilding yearly, and most that do use the stock crank at those levels are doing that for 9 sec or less at a time. For a RR application I would take the safety step and go forged, Lunati, Crower etc. Block $600, rotating assembly $2200 no bad for a bullet bottom. I would either use some AFR heads, or nice quality ported heads and NOT use the GMPP ASA heads. Theres plenty of little stuff, Oil pump, front and rear covers, oil pan, valley cover, etc that you should be able to pick up either thru SDC or in the for sale section to finish it off. Using FI stock ci, you should be able to build the engine with FI under $20k, then need things like the fuel system to support it. Not to many warranties are available, non I know of for FI at that. I agree 26k is a lot, especially if you are not getting exactly what you want.

Good luck,

Charlie
Old 11-29-2004, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Builder
Thank you for the replies...

SSactionLS1 and cyphur_traq, I was hoping that I might be able to build it myself. However, purchasing a short block is not out of the question. If I go that route, I will definitely consider one of the sponsors.

Z1500, that's what I am talking about. The method you outlined sounds like a good plan. As I am being careful with weight, is the iron block the best option? I mean, can the same approach be used with the LSx aluminum block? The AEM product looks like a great ECU. I have read about the FAST and Commander products. I will have to read up on the AEM now, too. Good lord! The stock crank can handle 750-1000 rwhp? That's huge! Going stock there will also save some $$$. Although, if those numbers are at the upper limit of the stock unit, the savings isn't worth the cost of a rebuild. Are you confident that the stock crank can handle that kind of power? That's the biggest problem...the transaxle. Although, the car only weighs about 2,300 lbs with me in it. So the tires break free before the torque gets to the ground. This car will be used mostly for road racing and a little 1/4 mile. Planning on two transaxles; one for a top speed of 180 and one for about 230 mph. Above 160 mph is where the power and torque will be most important.

flippincamaro, yes it would!!! I can hardly wait to get it on the road...

goober35, that's what I need to do...reverse the intake by turning the manifold. Is there anything special needed to flip it around? I have heard that the oil pressure sensor needs to be 90'd, or something like that. And some wire lengths probably need to be shorter/longer. Also, I would be interested in the details of your build..the specs of the "forged this and that". So, the stock (ported) heads will work if I use low-compression (turbo) pistons. No real need for the LQ4 heads. The 8k peak is not manditory. The stock gearing on the transaxle can be changed to fit the rev/torque curve. 7200-7400 works, too. Holy crap, you were up late. Hope you were partying like a rock-star!

Thank you for the replies. This is a great forum. The GTR is designed for a Gen-I block, but the LSx is the way to go and this forum has me jazzed about building one.
I'm familiar with the Ultima, and agree that a strong LS1 would be a great fit with this lightweight car. I do have one suggestion that you may want to consider before going totally gonzo on a forced induction motor. I'm running a 530 RWHP 427 (C5R block) in a '98 Vette, and at 3400 pounds with driver, it's damn near unmanageable on the street. Even with significant upgrades to the suspension, wheels and tires, and brakes, I would say that the last thing that I need is an additional 200 HP. I cannot imagine what my engine would be like in a car that weighs over 1000 pounds less.

Obviously, I know nothing about your driving skills or experience in ultra high performance cars, but unless you hold at least an SCCA National license and have won more than a few track events, you may want to walk before you run.
Old 11-29-2004, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by y2khawk
The LS2 is basically an aluminum version of the 6.0L iron truck block. Retains the same bearing bores as it's Gen3 brothers, but has a 4" bore The knock sensor location and type has changed, along w/ the location of the cam sensor. This poses a couple wiring and tuning changes, but nothing to major.

the block and crank strength are really not an issue. I'm running both stock pieces at probably double the power level your after. Spinning it beyond 8k will be the task at hand. How long do you plan to have it there? Sustained high speeds will need serious valvetrain parts to live. Short blasts and you can get away with alot.

I personally am awaiting Factory Five to release the GTM, their equivelent to the GTR. Mid engine designed around the LS1 and C5 running gear w/ Porsche transaxle. I've already got the twin setup in my head for it Yes, it's an addiction
Double the power? Holy crap! That's awesome...and sounds like an excellent route to take. Sounds like the LS2 install shouldn't be too much different than an LS1 considering the GTR is engineered for Gen-1 anyway.

This is how I see the car utilization: 70% street, 25% road-race tracks like Thunderhill, 5% strip. The road-race time will be the engine killer. As you are probably aware, a considerable amount (about 30%) of track time is spent at W.O.T. and almost all of it in the torque band...even a good portion of downshifts. The trans I will be running will be happy at 7,500 RPM. The goal is to set the rev limiter at about 7,700 an operate in the 3,500-7,500 range. Was thinking I would use the Jessel or new Comp shaft rockers. Not sure about the valves, springs, pushrods, lifters and cam yet. Although, solid roller is probably manditory. 9k revs would be awesome, but I am not looking to rebuild every year.

That GTM is coming along nicely. Saw some recent pix from SEMA and have read through their website. That's going to be a hot setup. And I know what you mean about the addiction!
Old 11-29-2004, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by CAT3
I think SDC has new blocks for $995! You really need to go to the "for sale" section for a block and crank there. You should be able to get one cheap there. Even with a new cast, have a competent machine shop check it and do the machine work. Even new, they dont use a torque plate when finishing the blocks at factory so soon after you could run into some issues later. You can use the stock crank, lots do, but I am sure your not interested in rebuilding yearly, and most that do use the stock crank at those levels are doing that for 9 sec or less at a time. For a RR application I would take the safety step and go forged, Lunati, Crower etc. Block $600, rotating assembly $2200 no bad for a bullet bottom. I would either use some AFR heads, or nice quality ported heads and NOT use the GMPP ASA heads. Theres plenty of little stuff, Oil pump, front and rear covers, oil pan, valley cover, etc that you should be able to pick up either thru SDC or in the for sale section to finish it off. Using FI stock ci, you should be able to build the engine with FI under $20k, then need things like the fuel system to support it. Not to many warranties are available, non I know of for FI at that. I agree 26k is a lot, especially if you are not getting exactly what you want.

Good luck,

Charlie
Hi Charlie,

Didn't find "SDC". Do you have a link? I will also look in the "for sale" section. There is so much stuff on this board, I didn't even think of that...duh. The reliability is a big issue for me, so an upgraded crank is deffinitely on the chalkboard. All of the rotating goodies and bearings will probably be upgraded. Not worried about the warranty, but if I were paying someone $26k I would want one! And that's for an NA carb engine!!
Old 11-29-2004, 11:49 AM
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he probably meant http://www.sdpc2000.com/
Old 11-29-2004, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by marco427
I'm familiar with the Ultima, and agree that a strong LS1 would be a great fit with this lightweight car. I do have one suggestion that you may want to consider before going totally gonzo on a forced induction motor. I'm running a 530 RWHP 427 (C5R block) in a '98 Vette, and at 3400 pounds with driver, it's damn near unmanageable on the street. Even with significant upgrades to the suspension, wheels and tires, and brakes, I would say that the last thing that I need is an additional 200 HP. I cannot imagine what my engine would be like in a car that weighs over 1000 pounds less.

Obviously, I know nothing about your driving skills or experience in ultra high performance cars, but unless you hold at least an SCCA National license and have won more than a few track events, you may want to walk before you run.
Hey, I appreciate your heads-up regarding the potential dangers. I know...speed kills. To be honest, I don't enter sanctioned events. My competitive bone doesn't run in that direction. I much prefer open track days, but will likely enter this car in the open class at the Silver State Classic (Spring '06).

Living here in northern Nevada, you probably can imagine how much open road we have. Mountain roads and tripple digits are daily events for me. More important than experience is attitude, when it comes to driving any new vehicle of any type. You have to learn the vehicle's capabilities in a controlled environment and also have the discipline to avoid pushing beyond the known performance envelope. This is what 34 years of driving two-wheeled, four-wheeled, and three-wheeled (airplanes) has taught me.

I truely appreciate your concern and can guarantee that I will be extremely cautious. After all, this is going to be an expensive project for a guy with my budget. I don't want to total it right off the bat!
Old 11-29-2004, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by narcszm
he probably meant http://www.sdpc2000.com/
That's a great price on an LS2 block! I might have to order that today!!! Get this project started...
Old 11-29-2004, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by y2khawk
The LS2 is basically an aluminum version of the 6.0L iron truck block. Retains the same bearing bores as it's Gen3 brothers, but has a 4" bore The knock sensor location and type has changed, along w/ the location of the cam sensor. This poses a couple wiring and tuning changes, but nothing to major.

the block and crank strength are really not an issue. I'm running both stock pieces at probably double the power level your after. Spinning it beyond 8k will be the task at hand. How long do you plan to have it there? Sustained high speeds will need serious valvetrain parts to live. Short blasts and you can get away with alot.

I personally am awaiting Factory Five to release the GTM, their equivelent to the GTR. Mid engine designed around the LS1 and C5 running gear w/ Porsche transaxle. I've already got the twin setup in my head for it Yes, it's an addiction
I've been loking at that same car for about a year. Was waiting to see what the finished product looked like first, but the tube chasis was real nice. I will probably just do a ls2 stroker on that though.
Old 11-29-2004, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by strokedls1
I've been loking at that same car for about a year. Was waiting to see what the finished product looked like first, but the tube chasis was real nice. I will probably just do a ls2 stroker on that though.
That's one of the reasons I went to the "USA GTR Builders Meeting" a couple of weeks ago. I saw the factory demo unit at the Kit Car Show at Knott's in May, but didn't get a ride. And I wanted to see what the car's road manners were like. BTW, they are really great. Also, talking to the builders and owners helped me make the final decision to jump in. Is someone building one near you? Are you in Venice Beach, CA?
Old 11-29-2004, 05:06 PM
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do you have ur licenses etc? for the SSCC, ive read the rules, and it requires more than just a car that qualifies.
Old 11-29-2004, 09:22 PM
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I don't know anyone building one. Just seen them on tv and read about it magazines. It looked awsome but the factory five car has been at the top of my list too. I would like to see the cars first hand before going any further. Maybe in the next year or so.
Old 11-29-2004, 09:22 PM
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And yes I'm in venice beach california
Old 11-29-2004, 10:24 PM
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The guy on the '03 power tour in a Ultima got the record for fastest speeding ticket on the tour. Sweet looking car, although the headlights are strange. he had a C5R based 427.
Old 11-29-2004, 10:33 PM
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Couple of things here

1) You don't just show up and run the unlimited class in an ORR event. It doesn't matter what car you show up in you won't be allowed to run faster than 168 mph on your 1st run, and maybe not faster than 140 mph depending on what your credentials are. You'll spend at least a couple years working your way up thru the classes so plan on doing that.

2) The GTR while a fantastic road car, unsurpassed OT car etc is NOT a great unlimited class ORR car. It's actually too light, the W/B is too short, and it's not very aerodynamic. You WILL be getting your *** handed to you in a major way in an unlimited class ORR event. Most likely by an fbody or a C4-C5 or a RUF Porsche or retired NASCAR ride or similiar car. Those boys out there know how to go fast. Maybe you should go as a course worker a time or 2 before actually running just so you can see what it's all about. A course worker has the best view of the event.
Old 11-29-2004, 10:38 PM
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Here are some pics of a GTR that I took at my best friends car dealership. He's currently building the cars and selling them. This particular one is a SBC that is carburated. It's very cool looking in person.

http://www.derty.org/photogallery/ca....php?cat_id=86
Old 11-29-2004, 10:48 PM
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Nice pics there Derty, Holland huh? Small world. Can you get some of the engine bay area?
Old 11-29-2004, 11:33 PM
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A Subaru EZ30 / EG33 fits your need strangly well. You have a super light car and don't need a huge amount of torque but do want to make 600whp and rev high. The boxer 6 gives you lower center of gravity, lighter weight that a V8, it's DOHC so rev it to 9k all day long. Build it up, tune it for 22psi on pump gas and away you go. Just a thought, right tool for the job. You notice Porsche and Ferrari do things the way they do for a reason. A Turbo LS1 just seems like way more motor than that little car needs/ can use.

Kevin


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