critter

iTrader: (9)

True by definition, but surely you will agree that some people have more or better answers than others - Bill Elliot, Smokey, Bill Jenkins, the WJ of old, Jere Stahl, Sonny Leonard, and so on.

66deuce

iTrader: (1)

here is my opinion on custom grinds.the farther away from stock you go with your motor,the more important it is to match your cam to your heads/intake/exhaust system,AND the intended use of the car.their are some very good shelf grinds out there that the sponsors have come up with that work well with stock and ported heads.but i think you can maximize performance with a custom grind,it depends largely on your goals. i'm going with a custom grind for my new H/C combo since it's only a little more than a shelf grind.i don't expect huge gains over,let's say a TR224 for example,but i expect it will give me more power under the curve and better drivability.that is worth the extra 75.00 or so to me.but maybe not to someone else with different goals.

SPANKY LS1

iTrader: (24)

Hype and snake oil, period. Search the high dyno threads and low ET threads, and see how many are shelf cams and how many are custom cams. Despite what the custom cam "salesman" say, a shelf grind usually works best. Anyone have any specific examples of any 500rwhp H/C cars using a custom cam? Anyone have any examples of any 10 second cam-only cars using a custom cam? There are a couple of 500+rwhp H/C cars, and a few 10 sec cam-only cars, and none of them (as far as I can recall) are using a custom cam. It seems like it should be awfully easy to duplicate/surpass those results since they are using shelf and "one size fits all" cams that the so called experts swear will not work. Where are all of the custom cam success stories? If a shelf cam can produce 500rwhp on a H/C car, shouldn't a custom cam be able to surpass that pretty easily? Even shelf cams have a TON of research and trial and error, its not like MTI, LG, TR, or anyone else just sits down and says, hhmmmm, 230/236 sounds good, lets have 500 of them made. I know for a fact that there were 3 or 4 different LG G5X3s before the finalized X3 was out. Just my .02. I'd love to be proven wrong, but have yet to see any examples of where a "custom" cam outshined a "shelf" grind.

Shawn

cyphur

iTrader: (10)

I'm suggesting that those big name manufacturers don't sit down with each customer and consistently come up with killer setups designed as EXACTLY what you want. Sure there are millions of combinations that can be achieved, and the various cam companies have collectively spent upwards of a billion dollars in R&D for the LS1, however for people who cannot sit down and decipher all of that information, a custom spec'd cam(whether it involves new lobes or existing lobes) is often the better way to go. I personally have not become acquainted with all of the various cam lobes available, nor will I have time to in the near future. That is why I would gladly call many different people to find what they think would work best for me. In the end I am open to whatever will work best, regardless of where it comes from. Custom spec cams tend to work best when you're past cam only on stock heads, from what I've seen, however.

66deuce

iTrader: (1)

i'll post track times and dyno numbers in the spring.but setup is mild(stg.1 type hand ported 5.3s, 2.00 int. 1.55 exh. valves 11.-1 CR.)so i won't be breaking any records,my goal is not the fastest car but a good street/strip car that i can hop into and drive 500 miles and not worry about anything.chuck

critter

iTrader: (9)

Now why did you have to destroy your credibility with that statement? Anybody who has been following these threads knows that no one, expert or not, has ever said that "one size fits all" cams will not work. The claim is that a custom spec'ed can (and probably will) "outperform" a "one size fits all" cam. Note that "outperform" does not necessarily mean best HP or best ET. It might mean best driveability, for example.
You already have been. You just don't know it yet Not everyone on here (and certainly those who are not on here) toots their own horns.

66deuce

iTrader: (1)

exactly my point.what matters to me is if i'm satisfied with my car when it's done,not peak numbers or lower track times than ricky racer.if i wanted killer dyno numbers or whatever i would just stick in a huge shelf grind and stg. 3 heads and be done with it.

SPANKY LS1

iTrader: (24)

Credibility? C'mon man, I'm a guy on a message board who goes by the name of Spanky, how much credibility can I really have anyways? Seriously, I understand what you're saying, and I do understand how a custom cam can be better in some instances than a shelf cam, but my point is that a "shelf" cam usually seems to work as good or better than a custom cam on 97% or more of the cars out there. Sure, if you're in the 3% that need every last bit of power, torque, driveability, or whatever your requirements are, a custom cam is for you. IMO, a guy like 66deuce or a similar guy who wants a "good street/strip car that i can hop into and drive 500 miles and not worry about anything" may (and probably would be) just be served as well with a proven shelf cam (TR224/224, TSP 225/225, etc) as he would be with his custom cam, despite what the custom cam "salesmen" say..

Shawn

66deuce

iTrader: (1)

you could be right.but i think i'll get a better power curve and drivability with a custom stick.a lot of these custom cams have different VE than off the shelf grinds,that's what made me go that route.like i said,i'll post the numbers when i'm done,good or bad.chuck








chuck

Sport Side

iTrader: (6)

ohhh my

-Yes, a shelf cam may perform as well as a custom.
-Was it made exactly for your setup? No. So chances are if the custom cam grinder is good. It will perform better.

Copying takes place all the time. A cam isn't a shelf cam until I can go up to the vendor and say I want part number XXX. and then buy.

J-Rod

I think many folks are getting off in a rut, and not using their brains. Let me try to spell it out in real simple terms...

There are folks out there who run shops who know no more about cam design than most of you. The singular advantage they have is they have a shop, and they can sell a cam. Most shops have a dyno, so they can at least experiment with those cams before they sell them to folks.

There is nothing wrong with trial and error experimentation. My buddy Sam down in Australia ordered about 40 cams and did just this. He ignored all the "conventional thinking" that folks had here in the states, and did things based upon his experience based on many year of building cars. He ordered the same lobes with various splits, and then advanced and retarded them and made hundreds of engine dyno pulls to find out what worked. Again, there is nothing wrong with this approach. Look at Lou. Lou's been racing for a long time and he's applying what he knows and based on his experience to design a cam. BTW, I like Lou. I talk to him on the phone all the time. He and Louis are really good guys. Lou is a fantastic race car driver, and he's a racer at heart.

There are another group. There are other shops who see what other shops are doing and they simply pick something close to what "everyone" else is doing. Since those cams are "proven", chances are these cams will work too.

Now, you have one other group. The actual custom cam grinders. What do these folks have? They have the luxury of both of the above method I outlined in most cases (they have experience, and they test). The other thing is that they often use some analytical tools that have been developed to help race teams and individuals focus in on more "ideal" cam designs.

Here is something for you to think about. Comp Cams has thousands of lobes. The XE-R line for the LS series lobe is a SMALL portion of this selection. If folks think the world ends with XE-R then you have to understand they are not seeing the big picture. They also basically don't understand how aiflow requirements and port design dictate lobe selection. And thats cool, not everyone does.

Lets look at what you can do. You can overscavenge your exhaust. You can over cam your engine, and throw too much lobe at it. You can be a big dyno queen with a big peak HP number, and you can be really slow. But hey, you've got a big dyno number to be proud of. So, thats something...

On the other hand you can determine what RPM you want to run. How much your heads flow. You can determine you I/E %. You can look at what headers you run. What gear is in the car. How much it weighs. And you can look at what the car is going to be used for, and then determine the lobes and the cam design.

Both criteria I've outlined work. Both may have similar results if you only look at one parameter (like peak hp). If you discount things like drivability, midrange power, or anything else then you might be real happy. Why do the truly custom cam grinders use lobes that vary rather than just sticking to one family of lobes? The answer is quite simple. Sometimes a motor needs less lobe. Sometimes a motor needs more lobe. This ammount may vary based on lift. Sure, you might split the difference, but it like a stall converter. If you need 3000 RPM of stall speed, why put a 5200 RPM converter in the car? It might sound cool. It might bark the tires, but you loose a ton of your powerband.

For those who think a camshaft optimized for your particular combination is inferior to a mass produced cam optimized for no combination please explain why you think this is...

NLang

iTrader: (12)

It's like GM's approach to taking care of the piston slap in these engines. "It's perfectly normal"; "It's just a little noise; it's not a problem." Knowing damn well it should be repaired, it's avoided because they don't care to deal with it. It's too much of a hassle...Sound familliar?

No personal offense directed at anyone one of you, but some of you (sorry for being so blunt) are talking out of your asses. You're either avoiding the truth for whatever reason, or just ignorant-sorry...A custom cam is made to yield optimum results for a specific application-period. No one cam grind is optimum for two applications-period. With all engine specs being equal, the type of use/track the vehicle will see will vary the cam design as well for optimum results.

Just as J-Rod said: "For those who think a camshaft optimized for your particular combination is inferior to a mass produced cam optimized for no combination please explain why you think this is...

Where's EDC and his opinion bashing comments when they're actually needed

Cstraub

iTrader: (1)

Here is a marine engine combo one of my customers just got done with.
Goal: Provide a package to compete with Mercury's HP500 that is a 12K option over a base 502 engine. Make the package user friendly for the boat owner to install. Must be cost effective, under $6K

502cid - 100% stock short block other than min. deck cut to make flat
8.8 compression. Did not zero deck - pistons .012" down + .040" headgasket
850 Sea Demon 82P 90S
HVH 1" Super Sucker
HV/Brodix 2000 Intake
Canfield 310 heads / CNC Chamber / No Port Work
Cam - custom Hyd Roller Just under 225 at .050 I w/112LSA

2" Primary Schoenfield Headers - dyno mufflers
Will test Gill Exhaust again when done testing in this state

Belt driven Sea Water pump working - cross over - alternator working - no PS pump.

89 octane fuel - yep, Winter Blend right from the gas pump.

35 Degrees total timing - HEI external coil distributor ( yes, the computer one) with Jacobs amplifier/coil

RPM HP Torque
2100 194.3 483.8
2200 206.6 495.67
2300 217.5 498.52
2400 231.0 505.70
2500 243.9 512.60
2600 256.8 519.00
2700 269.2 523.36
2800 279.9 524.64
2900 288.2 521.78
3000 295.2 516.70
3100 302.8 513.17
3200 312.2 512.08
3300 323.2 514.40
3400 336.7 519.97
3500 351.9 527.69
3600 374.4 542.69
3700 387.9 550.14
3800 406.6 562.41
3900 424.7 572.21
4000 440.7 578.35
4100 457.4 584.13
4200 468.2 586.44
4300 480.3 586.50
4400 490.9 585.93
4500 500.4 583.75
4600 508.8 580.29
4700 515.1 576.90
4800 526.3 575.77
4900 531.4 569.77
5000 536.0 563.20
5100 540.2 556.26
5200 540.9 546.34

Valve events and overlap are critical with wet exhaust. . .you can really screw an engine up. The HP 500 merc has a much larger cam, 234/242 @ .050" but this engine has much better heads. Could a shelf work. ..yeah. Could it make more peak power. . .yeah. But this custom cam is designed to make power over a broad range to move 8K pounds of fiberglass.

This combo exceeded the engine builders goals and for $5K to your door give's the performance boater a great bang for the buck.

Chris

mikey

iTrader: (6)

Interesting Chris. My 23' Stingray is due for a re-power. Currently a 454 Mag.

Cstraub

iTrader: (1)

Mikey,
23 Rinker here, I'm thinking 496 stroker!!! Hey got mail from you, so you should get mail from me.

Chris

mikey

iTrader: (6)

Captiva model? I looked at those many years back. Nice boat. Mine will do 74mph GPS verified as it is now. Good to hear you got my mail bud.

Ed Curtis

OK NoseUp

When some people talk and/or post... it reminds me of an old cliche'...

"It's better to remain silent and let people "think" you are an idiot than speak up and remove all doubt"

Some people on this forum just need to be silent on this topic...

/awaiting flamefest

Ed

Sport Side

iTrader: (6)

I don't know who this Mary chick is, but she's pretty smart

NLang

iTrader: (12)

That works

LOnSLO

iTrader: (15)

I believe in getting several different custom grinds, and experimenting on the engine dyno. I know this is not practical for most, but it's the best way to go about finding that last extra ounce of power. I've tried three so far on mine, and will be trying another here shortly. Each is a custom grind cam made to fit my combo. Not from Comp, Crane, Lunati, or Crower. They are true race grinds. The only way to know which will work best is by experimentation.