Yes, and thanks for posting. It's still very informative as is.

Dan

 

I know flow numbers arent everything but those intake flow numbers on the AFRs are pretty weak. (no flame intended)

My LS6 ported heads flowed 326 at .600 lift on a 3.9 bore and would have flowed more on a 4.03 bore.

 

what was the size of the intake runner?and were your midlift numbers comparable to the AFRs?

 

No flame taken

I would bet you anything those flow numbers wouldn't be found on ANY independant flowbench that had nothing to prove. If the oppurtunity ever presented itself, I would pay the freight and flowtest them here at no cost to you. My guess is when the smoke cleared you would be getting on the back of a long line of disappointed people...trust me on that.

I havent flowed ONE head that anyone has sent me that was closer than 10 CFM's to what the owner thought they were or saw them advertised at. Most are off the mark between 10 and 20....the worst one missed by 40 CFM's !!

Kumar....how much power are you currently making and what does your set-up consist of? With that type of airflow you should be making incredibly strong numbers compared to similar set-ups.

Let me know if you would ever consider taking me up on my offer....In fact, I'll send you to a different independant bench if it makes you feel any better. We can arrange the details at a later date.

Tony M.

 

Tony,

I like your gesture to Kumar and its a nice offer. I have seen you post these types of things before. This is one of the major reasons I bought your product. I like how you back it. If it means a lot to you then I feel as a consumer that I am getting my money's worth and that would lead me to reccomend many to you.

 

Tony you pm about your heads.......

 

I tell you what. If I ever get the heads off the car for more than a week, I will send them to you. The flow bench I had them flowed on actually flows about 7-8 cfm lower than a couple other flow benches locally. I have had sets flowed in Houston that flowed more than on this bench.

Actually, if I ever get them off the car, I will take them to a 3rd party bench locally of your choosing.

When I first got these heads, they only flowed 309 at .600 lift and I was not happy. I had a lot more work done to them to reach the 326 number. They flow 339 at .700 lift. I am gonna be using a .645 lift cam. Plus my exhaust flow numbers are decent but they arent GREAT.

I am hoping to make close to 535rwhp on my 408 with 11.2:1 compression and a hydraulic cam. I should have numbers early next week. Those numbers are competitive with the what the top tuners should be making with that type of compression on a 408.

Its a nitrous motor made for a 300 shot + I have 3.90 gears. I could put 3.42 gears in it, change the rings, put cutouts on the car, and run it w/o a belt with my electric water pump and probably pick up around 30rwhp.

no belt - 10-15hp (i got 13 last time)
3.90 gears - 7-10hp
proper cutouts - 5-10hp
non nitrous rings - 5-10hp

Dyno numbers wont prove a lot. A few months ago, I quit caring about dyno numbers because there are so many factors.

AFRs are sweet. They are a very good design + they are cost efficient but for top numbers, out of the box AFRs arent quite as good as the top level ported LS6 heads IMO. I have already heard this from at least 4 tuners/engine builders. Not that they should be. AFRs are $2400 where a ported LS6 head will usually be around $3500-4000.

If I had a lot of money, I'd prolly get the AFR 225s and send them to head porter to get the full potential. I was just saying that the out of the box ones are good but not extreme.

Also, when will the regular 225s be out. I dont like the idea of going with a high compression piston to make up for the 72cc.

 

intake runner is prolly closer to 240 (just a guess)

and no my mid lift numbers werent as good; thats why I said I was not flaming the AFR heads. I clarified my stance a lil bit in my last post.

250 at .400 lift and 292 at .500 lift

but u know what, i consider higher lift flow numbers to be more important.

When I first got these heads, the flowed a lot more mid lift (a lil better than the AFR) but only that 309 at .600 lift. When I had them revised, I picked up about 20rwhp on my car with no other changes and also a couple mph at the track.

 

Higher lifts are more important....
alright buddy, look at it this way, on a .650 lift cam, you would only see 4-6 degrees of crank duration above say .640 lift, and the lower you go the larger that timespan becomes...that would be why the larger numbers at say .400" lift are so important, you will see that lift number for a MUCH longer period of time. Degree your cam, trust me!! Didn't believe it at first either

If your numbers are legit then I to you, but to in all essence disregard low-lift & mid-lift numbers is an effort worth walking away from...understandibly large cams can to some extent overcome a "Lazy" port (i.e. big volume with low velocity, only "Peak" numbers) due to their ability to get to higher lift faster, but I only like buying one set of valvesprings

Look, we can on this subject all day, not what I am looking for, just wanting to state that more "Average" flow typically = more "Average" power. I state typically because I am sure there is someone out there that will drone on and on proving me wrong, like everything else in the world, I am sure there is an exception somewhere.

 

This is the reasoning to my first post in this thread.

 

I am not necessarily looking for more average power.

I am looking for power from 5000-7000rpm. How many cars see anything below 5000rpm at the track? There is something wrong with your setup if your car is seeing that much time below 5krpm at any track.

Anyone with a 408 or 427 is already going to make so much tq/power below 5000rpm that it will be more than enough for driving around. I can leave the car in 6th from 45mph up and never have to downshift to pass traffic. You already have a big cubic inch V8 thats providing enough power down low.

As for the mid lift vs high lift numbers, I can only go by my own experience on my car. The only thing I changed was putting bigger valves in it and getting the heads reported. My mid lift numbers suffered quite a bit but my high lift numbers were much better. My car ran much better. I was beating cars by 2-3 car lengths on the street that I was dead even with before. Also, mphed better at the track.

Thats why my point is that out of the box AFRs arent quite as good as crazy ported LS6 heads for race applications. I am not saying they are bad heads. Whether you make 450rwtq at 4krpm or 500rwtq, all its gonna do is roast the tires on the street. For racing applications, I want numbers up top.

I will post my numbers once I get everything together but like I said, it should be around 535rwhp easy and I could easily add 35rwhp to that using little everyday used tricks.

I dont have the technical knowledge of a lot of people on here especially someone like Tony but I have gone through a bunch of setups and spent a lot of money on my own car and pretty much formulated my own ideas from past results. Give me big intake runners and high flow numbers at .600-.700 lift and I'm happy.

I know enough from my own experience that if you have a car that is dyno friendly (EWP, cutouts, 3.42 gears) I know that 550rwhp and 500rwtq is very achievable on a 408.

 

Just want to add that if i bought a daily driver type car, first thing I would do is put AFR 205s on it and a mild cam and make solid 450rwhp with good driveability and power under the curve.

The 225s seem to be the same thing for more cubic inch motors.

 

Kumar...

To sum it up....what I am trying to get you to consider is the numbers you think your heads currently flow MIGHT not pan out if they were taken to a 3rd party with an accurate and calibrated SF600 SuperFlow.....only a trip to a qualified independant test facility could truly back that up. Considering I have flowtested dozens of various heads in the aftermarket....(many of which were 235-245 cc's).... and NONE of them remotely come close to what you claim, from my vantage point as someone who lives his life consumed by the prospect of MORE airflow and spends countless hours in a given week working with a flowbench, I'm thinking the .600 number you reference is a tad optimistic. In fact, I would get more pleasure out of seeing a head legitamately flow that number on a 3.900 bore than being proven right as to my assumptions that its actually not the case. You very well might have gained some flow and some power with the last modifications that were done to them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they flow what you think.

In addition, I feel reasonably confident you could bolt on a pair of 225's right out of the box from AFR and see more power EVERYWHERE in the combination you described above....low...mid...and peak. The extra throttle response and fuel economy would just be a bonus. Maybe I'm right and maybe I'm wrong....having the chance to flowtest one of your heads and cc a few of the runners would certainly paint a clearer picture, but unfortunately that comparison isnt readily available right now. If in fact it becomes a reality, I would insure that is was checked at AFR AND a 3rd party's bench just to satisfy everyones curiosity.

Thanks,
Tony M.

 

Tony I wish I did all the work on my car and maybe I would spend the time doing this just for the plain reason so I would know. It would be a pretty interesting test I think.

AFR is still the way to go if you look at it this way:

if u want a very good setup, get the 225s for $2400
if u want to go ***** out, buy the AFR castings and spend the money on a top head porter

I guess what I meant to say was that an out of the box AFR might not be an improvement over a badass ported LS6 head. The way I worded things sounded like criticism but I hope you know what I mean.

 

So AFR 225s don't flow 320 cfm as they advertise?

 

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....8&postcount=12

 

Your reasons stated for flowing with a pipe on the ex side is the same reason I've been trying to get across about flowing a head with the intake attached. What is the point of having a hogged out race head with crapy low and mid lift #'s just to hit 320cfm if you cant get more than 285cfm through a ported 90mm LSX?

Kumar have you ever flowed your heads and intake togeather? I'll bet you any money you get no where near 300cfm through the intake. If thats the case why is a # over 300 so important to you?

 

ONEBADWS6...great question, and a great example of why more average airflow is key.

 

Tony, do you flow the AFR's with an intake? You state how important the exhaust pipe is, but isn't the intake just as important?

 

even if the heads arent hogged out sometimes people quote 320cfm, but they fail to mention that its @ .700 which there cam wont even get close to touching, and @ .500 - .600 the head is just "average".

i've learned alot about head flow while putting my combo together. having my heads flowed through raduis plates, 2 intakes and a curved pipe does alot of things to "advertised" numbers.