Quickin

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ed Potter @ LPE:
<strong>[/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">very low power, maybe good, but low. Certainly nowhere near 400+ RWHP with a factory idle, IMPOSSIBLE.

I spent allot of time listening to and riding in many different types of H/C cars, all of the ones with just good power (360-380 RWHP) idle nowhere near stock. If you want 400+ RWHP you can forget about it.</strong>[/QUOTE]

I don't know where this information comes from, but it is definately NOT accurate. Our top end package is very conservatively rated at 430hp/400ft.lbs (flywheel)which doesn't seem like that much power, but with a catback exhaust(which we include in the package price), and the other typical bolt-ons,they are making MUCH more power.

maybe you would like to come by and see one of these IMPOSSIBLE cars in person!

Ed[/QB][/QUOTE]

About a year ago when I was trying to figure out what I wanted and I contacted LPE (also MMS, MORE, MTI, ARE, and others) can't remember who I spoke with at LPE though. I told them I wanted 500 RWHP N/A for my T/A. I told them that none of there packages offered for the F-Body come anywhere close to that. If memory serves, the most FLYWHEEL HP available was 440, well under 400 at the wheels. I had about $30,000 to spend and LPE wouldn't do it. They also told me that they wouldn't do a TT set-up, that was only for the Vettes. Like the Vette is something special. Then I started to learn that every other shop in the nation had been building motors with 500 to 600+ FLYWHEEL HP for almost half the price of LPE with the same warranty. Pretty easy decision there.
LPE also told me that I should not expect my car to idle like stock with there 383 package. Thats with about 375 RWHP. So now you have cars with 430 flywheel that idle EXACTLY like stock? No possible way to tell if I were standing right inbetween both cars idling. How do you do it? What has changed in a year?

Like I said earlier, everyones idea of a stock idle is different, that the problem here. I saw an LPE C5 Vette here in town that ran 12.5's with the 383 LPE motor, you could here the cam 100 ft. away, the car had a lope to it and was EASILY noticeable over stock, for me anyway. It wasn't crazy, but any idiot could tell in 1 second flat that is was cammed. The MMS Aggressor 500 H/C kit is the same way. Allot more HP than the LPE 383 kit, but it still shook like crazy. I think that makes 440 RWHP.

I would love to see a H/C car with 400+ RWHP that I couldn't tell if it was factory stock or not.

I went with an ARE stroker and got the RWHP I wanted at half the price with a 2yr/24,000 mile warranty. I wanted a H/C car so I didn't have to spend so much cash, but the idle I wanted would be impossible according to every other race shop in the country.

Chubby

Slow,
I am from GC also, I am having a TR 224 112 or a comp XE 224 113 with GTP s2 heads currently installed by Speed Inc. LTs ORP and quiet exhaust system. I currently live in Effingham, but I go home at least once a month. If you would want to check it out let me know. Hopeto be fully completed in a couple weeks.

Greg Campos

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

Quickin,

Intresting how you totally dodge:

02 Z06 cam + LPE ported LS6 heads + supporting bolt on's = 400+rwhp with stock like idle.

Quickin

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 99 Black Bird T/A:
<strong> Quickin,

Intresting how you totally dodge:

02 Z06 cam + LPE ported LS6 heads + supporting bolt on's = 400+rwhp with stock like idle. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whatcha mean????

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Quickin:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 99 Black Bird T/A:
<strong> Quickin,

Intresting how you totally dodge:

02 Z06 cam + LPE ported LS6 heads + supporting bolt on's = 400+rwhp with stock like idle. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whatcha mean???? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You made several statments that it was not possible to have a near stock idle and 400+ rwhp.

Clearly, you are wrong.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Quickin:

About a year ago when I was trying to figure out what I wanted and I contacted LPE can't remember who I spoke with at LPE though. I told them I wanted 500 RWHP N/A for my T/A. I told them that none of there packages offered for the F-Body come anywhere close to that. If memory serves, the most FLYWHEEL HP available was 440, well under 400 at the wheels. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The packages LPE refered to are probably the EPA certified ones. LPE can make more power than 440 flywheel, but those packages are not EPA certifed. That's my understanding, maybe Ed can clear that up for sure.

John B

iTrader: (10)

My set-up with the B1 cam and MTI S2 heads is very mild and certainly meets your criteria, especially for drivability and it will pass emissions! Power numbers in signature below:

Quickin

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 99 Black Bird T/A:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Quickin:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 99 Black Bird T/A:
<strong> Quickin,

Intresting how you totally dodge:

02 Z06 cam + LPE ported LS6 heads + supporting bolt on's = 400+rwhp with stock like idle. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whatcha mean???? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You made several statments that it was not possible to have a near stock idle and 400+ rwhp.

Clearly, you are wrong. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dude, or anyone, don't tell me I'm wrong. I spent 1 year talking to LPE and all the other top tuners about H/C idle quality. They ALL informed me that it's impossible to get a stock-like idle and still put down 400+ RWHP. I challenge any tuner, even the almighty, super-duper, special, magical LPE to produce a 346 H/C motor that puts out over 400 RWHP and sounds EXACTLY like stock. Did you here me correctly, EXACTLY like stock. Meaning there is NO WAY to tell the difference. Give yourself a break.
If you can make one, I will purchase it and furthermore, give it away in a raffle to LS1Tech.com

We're not talking about a Z06, we're talking about a WS6 or an SS from 1998-2002.

Good luck.

Quickin

Maybe I have the senses necassary to hear and feel a cammed motor over stock, and all of you are just so into the performance thing to admit that the lope you here is more than a stock lope.

REM

Any head/cam setup with a good dyno tune will should give you over 400 RWHP.

Ryan

niphilli

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Quickin:

If memory serves, the most FLYWHEEL HP available was 440, well under 400 at the wheels. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Those numbers are conservative, and the top end #s are also quoted without the addition of LT headers. We all know that LTs are worth a good 30-40 RWHP on a H/C Car. I have seen quite a few top end packages from LPE make well over 400 RWHP with the addition of LT headers on an F-Bod. And idle is very stock-like. If memory serves LPE is using a cam with like 116 LSA for their package far from the 112s that frequent this board.


I will admit that their sales skills were not exactly up to par in the past, I contacted them multiple times by e-mail about a year ago with no reply, and it sounds like the person you spoke with was not exactly up to snuff either. I think Ed is taking a step in the right direction though.


Getting back to the thread topic I think there are a number of combos that have stock, or near stock idle characteristics that can put out 380-400 at the wheels, '02LS-6 cam and heads, LPE cam and heads, TR-220 cam and heads come to mind off the top of my head.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dude, or anyone, don't tell me I'm wrong. I spent 1 year talking to LPE and all the other top tuners about H/C idle quality. They ALL informed me that it's impossible to get a stock-like idle and still put down 400+ RWHP. I challenge any tuner, even the almighty, super-duper, special, magical LPE to produce a 346 H/C motor that puts out over 400 RWHP and sounds EXACTLY like stock. Did you here me correctly, EXACTLY like stock. Meaning there is NO WAY to tell the difference. Give yourself a break.
If you can make one, I will purchase it and furthermore, give it away in a raffle to LS1Tech.com

We're not talking about a Z06, we're talking about a WS6 or an SS from 1998-2002.

Good luck.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OK, I won't tell you that your are wrong since you seem very sensitive about it, I'll give you a little reading material and let you put it together for yourself.

As for what you were told a year ago, things change.

We're talking about doing a heads and cam build, so talking about LS6 heads and 02 LS cam like a Z06 has is fair game. My point is by using all the bolt on's, 02 LS6 (Z06 cam), ported LS6 heads etc, tuning etc, an fbody or non Z06 vette, could be built to make 400rwhp with a near stock idle. In fact the idle should be about what an 02 Z06 idles at. While this might not be a good enough idle for you, since you needed an ARE 436 just to get an acceptable idle, I think most of would agree a 02 Z06 has an acceptable idle.

https://ls1tech.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ulti...c;f=1;t=008847
370rwhp + with bolt on's for
390rwhp bolt on z06 mentioned

https://ls1tech.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ulti...c;f=1;t=009276
02 Z06 cam show more potential than expected

http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showt...threadid=23090
Dyno results from the Z06 vettes listed many of the 02 make 370+ rwhp with a few bolt on's. . blkZ06 ~371rwhp, jackclark ~378rwhp, Red Kelly also mentioned a 390rwhp+ Z06 with similar mods specifically
Add ported LS6 heads and long tube headers and your knocking on the 400rwhp door

http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showt...threadid=28223
For the few bolt on's I'm please with 371rwhp.

http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showt...threadid=28054
2001Z06 states 385.8 rwhp & 392rwtq with bolt on's
Z11409 states 379rwhp & 369rwtq again bolt on's

https://ls1tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.p...1;t=005979;p=2
See page 2 Pro Stock John says Nick Flowery has customers with 28rwhp gain on a z06 by swapping on the ported LS6 heads

400rwhp with a 02 Z06 cam and ported LS6 heads, longtube headers, underdrive pulley, and maybe a few other bolt on's seems very possible. Since the 02 LS6 is a stock cam in a Z06, it should have a near stock idle in an LS1 engine built up like a LS6 for an fbody, don't you think?

Even if the ported LS6 heads were only worth 10rwhp, 400rwhp is possible with near stock idle.

Still don't think a pair of ported LS6 heads and long tube headers could make 400rwhp with near stock idle using a stock 02 Z06 cam?

As for your offer to buy a 400rwhp set up with stock idle, that does include the car that's attached to the set up right?

RUF SS

Well, a lot (with in the 215/221 to 218/224 on a 114) of H/C cars sound choppy or not stock sounding because of no cats, LT, and no good PCM tune. My car with 227/227 on a 383 with cats, LTs, exhaust, and all the goodies, sounded like stock. Now, with a 230/227, it sounds a bit louder. However, I have no cats on there at the moment. So, I bit with cats it will sound very close to a stock car with LTs and exhaust. Also, when I had my stock CI and 215/221 114 LSA (395 rwhp with cats!), no one know that I had H/C on my car because they could not see any difference in idle.

There is no way to sound EXACTLY like a stock car, but the measurement would be very hard to tell the difference. In fact, I do not think two stock cars would sound the same. As you know the exhaust tone will change after some miles on it, and driving habits will make a car sound different too.

Just what I have observed and my .02

Quickin

Anyone have videos of there H/C cars idling? Or driving under acceleration?

Quickin

99 Black Bird T/A,

The only reason I didn't buy a H/C kit was because when I spoke to every tuner in this country and told them that I want over 400 RWHP and a stock-like idle, they all said to just forget it. I went with there professional word.
They all said I need a stroker to get that power and idle.
The H/C cars I've seen idle like crap, to me anyway, and can easily be distinguished.

snaksknr

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Quickin:
<strong> Before I chose my motor I litened to a few H/C cars, high HP (over 400) and low HP (360), they all had shitty idles IMO. I couldn't handle that shaking so i went with a stroker motor for the idle quality.

From what I've seen, your car is gonna shake allot if you go near 375 RWHP. But everyones idea of a crappy idle is different.

I wanted at least 450 RWHP, for that a H/C motor would have the worst idle in the world. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ummmmm, not true. I recently dynoed 380 RWHP with my recent H/C package through the stock manifolds and cats. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> Same package, shop, dyno with a set of Macs dynoed 405 (buddies car). Hmmmmm. LTs and tuning who knows....415ish?

Idle is BETTER and SMOOTHER than stock -- 207/220 573/580 w/118.5 lsa. Not too 'impossible' is it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ? Oh, last but not least - this is my favorite part - I would like to thank the fellas at LPE for a great package! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

Tin Indian

snaksknr wrote:

"Idle is BETTER and SMOOTHER than stock -- 207/220 573/580 w/118.5 lsa".

118.5 LSA! WoW
I would agree that with that LSA, the idle would be of stock quality. It should also pull very well in the high revs.... BUT, with that LSA, I would think low rpm torque would suffer. Tell me I am wrong.

Ron,

Tin Indian

BTW, whats the IC on that cam?

Just wondering if a 118.5 LSA cam would be ground with any advance built in....

CaptainSS

I'll tell you you're wrong. You're wrong. Don't tell me about a car I own. My car sits and idles as calmly as it did stock. My exhaust is louder and the car is considerably faster but, the manners are the same. The only driveability change is attributeable to the clutch.

Ed Potter @ LPE

iTrader: (1)

Quicken -
I think the problem is the amount of time that has passed since you first inquired. Last year NOBODY was getting 400RWHP out of H&C cars,and very radical cams were the only way to get power. Now it's very common to get much higher horsepower from H&C setups, but at the expense of idle quality. Camshaft technology has come far enough now, to allow people to build 400+rwhp LS1's with a relatively mild cam, through factory cats! I know you probably won't belive this, so feel free to call me, like I said, I'll hold the phone out the window, or I can videotape with sound. Whatever it takes to convince you is ok with me.

Ed