INSANE noise from the new lifters
Originally Posted by ArcticZ28
as you can see I'm worn out from tearing this thing down time and time again. But, I did make sure that my timing was correct. It was incorrect the first time but I realigned it and now it is definitely 100% correct.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,125
Likes: 4
From: Alexandria, VA
Originally Posted by soundengineer
dude if you had stock lifters collapse on a 224 cam...there is something seriously wrong....
I did an x1 cam...(larger than all the 224 cams) and I did not have any lifter problems
and I know several people that have done WAY larger...and are still using stock lifters on way more lift..and way more agressive ramp rates...and lots of miles on the clock...
ok...back to the real questioning
What was your method of torqing to 22 ft lbs....
did you use a torque wrench?? or did you measure by do the Trhead count method???
some torque wrenches are hard to read...and you get the #'s off...and you do it wrong...and you would get lots of noise..
ALSO...
one quick test for you... find out exactly which cylinders are really making all the noise...use a screw drive/stethescope..or the more $ mechanics version....
with the engine running...pull the spark plug wire...IF it stops making noise...you might have a spun bearing...or maybe a couple of them....might have gotten a piece of metal in there somehow...and it might have chewed up bearings....
if you pulled the fuel fuse and it did the same thing...got quiet with no fuel...then that is another indication of possible spun bearing(s)
also...could just be a tuning issue....Might be Knock or worse..pre-detonation...would make that same horrible racket..and would go away without fuel
I did an x1 cam...(larger than all the 224 cams) and I did not have any lifter problems
and I know several people that have done WAY larger...and are still using stock lifters on way more lift..and way more agressive ramp rates...and lots of miles on the clock...
ok...back to the real questioning
What was your method of torqing to 22 ft lbs....
did you use a torque wrench?? or did you measure by do the Trhead count method???
some torque wrenches are hard to read...and you get the #'s off...and you do it wrong...and you would get lots of noise..
ALSO...
one quick test for you... find out exactly which cylinders are really making all the noise...use a screw drive/stethescope..or the more $ mechanics version....
with the engine running...pull the spark plug wire...IF it stops making noise...you might have a spun bearing...or maybe a couple of them....might have gotten a piece of metal in there somehow...and it might have chewed up bearings....
if you pulled the fuel fuse and it did the same thing...got quiet with no fuel...then that is another indication of possible spun bearing(s)
also...could just be a tuning issue....Might be Knock or worse..pre-detonation...would make that same horrible racket..and would go away without fuel
I torqued to 22 ft/lbs. I agree it could be any of these possibilities, I'm just trying to rule out the ones that I can figure out WITHOUT pulling the heads. I really have no desire to do that, but I will if I eventually have to. The thing is that when I had it all together and my timing was advanced/retarded about 4 degrees, I was driving around and it seemed not to be too bad. It was idling really well and ran pretty well (minus the ridiculous sewing machine sound which I didn't find too normal). I was riding around for 30 minutes when something just went thump, thump, thump and my RPM's were staying around 150-200. I cut it off and had it towed back home which is when I started troubleshooting and found that my timing was way off. So, I fixed that and now it has the very bad knocking and shaking. I hope I didn't mess too much up.
i'm pretty stumped as to this as well.....
if you are ready to pull the heads, i recommend pulling the motor (out the bottom) to do so. this way, if you get the heads off and find no apparent problems, a bearing replacement job would be no sweat.
if you are ready to pull the heads, i recommend pulling the motor (out the bottom) to do so. this way, if you get the heads off and find no apparent problems, a bearing replacement job would be no sweat.
knocking problem? the only thing i can think of that might solve your problem...if you said you took off the valve covers and turned the engine over and heard no knocking and it only knocks when there is combustion, you may either have pre-ignition or detonation...check to make sure your spark plug gap is .060...looks like a lot of gap but it works, also if you have a plus 4 plug or something with more than one prong, take those out and but a regular single prong in...sound to me like your ignition is either too hot or too cold...what is your oil pressure at? if its less than 25 or so at idle your o-ring where the oil pick up tube meets the oil pump may be broken, causing lifters to lose their prime and collapse...and did you prime your filters before installing them?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,125
Likes: 4
From: Alexandria, VA
Originally Posted by ws6SSmaniac
the only thing i can think of that might solve your problem...if you said you took off the valve covers and turned the engine over and heard no knocking and it only knocks when there is combustion, you may either have pre-ignition or detonation...check to make sure your spark plug gap is .060...looks like a lot of gap but it works, also if you have a plus 4 plug or something with more than one prong, take those out and but a regular single prong in...sound to me like your ignition is either too hot or too cold...what is your oil pressure at? if its less than 25 or so at idle your o-ring where the oil pick up tube meets the oil pump may be broken, causing lifters to lose their prime and collapse...and did you prime your filters before installing them?
you really should do the spark plug wire thing I mentioned....
people are sugesting valves.....but you said it went away when not under combustion(you took away fuel??).... and valves you would hear all the time
been there...done that...on a buddys car...had to help him replace 2 valves
also...
does it come from above?? or below....
listen to it from down by the wheel well...is it louder there than up top????
can you record this sound somehow??? and post it???
would help a lot to be able to diagnose it
people are sugesting valves.....but you said it went away when not under combustion(you took away fuel??).... and valves you would hear all the time
been there...done that...on a buddys car...had to help him replace 2 valves
also...
does it come from above?? or below....
listen to it from down by the wheel well...is it louder there than up top????
can you record this sound somehow??? and post it???
would help a lot to be able to diagnose it
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,125
Likes: 4
From: Alexandria, VA
Originally Posted by soundengineer
you really should do the spark plug wire thing I mentioned....
people are sugesting valves.....but you said it went away when not under combustion(you took away fuel??).... and valves you would hear all the time
been there...done that...on a buddys car...had to help him replace 2 valves
also...
does it come from above?? or below....
listen to it from down by the wheel well...is it louder there than up top????
can you record this sound somehow??? and post it???
would help a lot to be able to diagnose it
people are sugesting valves.....but you said it went away when not under combustion(you took away fuel??).... and valves you would hear all the time
been there...done that...on a buddys car...had to help him replace 2 valves
also...
does it come from above?? or below....
listen to it from down by the wheel well...is it louder there than up top????
can you record this sound somehow??? and post it???
would help a lot to be able to diagnose it
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Verdad Gallardo I had an exhaust leak that made that sound once..... did you have to pull or loosen the exhaust manifolds recently??? could just be a leak....and that could move around depending on engine temperature...might also be worse at cold startup than after running for a while
and has the noise just been what your ear hears standing next tothe car...or have you done the stethoscope thing.....
Important to know EXACTLY where the noise is coming from...and you can tell when you do that...Aluminum is not very decieving when you stick the stethoscope to it...
My buddy broke an inner spring on a dual spring...and we were able to tell exactly which one before we took off the valve covers...
Important to know EXACTLY where the noise is coming from...and you can tell when you do that...Aluminum is not very decieving when you stick the stethoscope to it...
My buddy broke an inner spring on a dual spring...and we were able to tell exactly which one before we took off the valve covers...
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,125
Likes: 4
From: Alexandria, VA
It is definitely coming from the valvetrain/heads area of the passenger side of the car and has recently sort of moved to the driver's side. It is definitely not an exhaust leak type of sound. It is a hard banging and I have put a stethoscope to it. There is no mistaking that it is internal to the engine with a hard metal hitting hard metal sound.
at this point do some of the easy things first.... pull a couple of pushrods out and roll them on some glass...mayeb just a bent pushrod...but I am still thinking towards a bearing because of the no combustion silence....pushrods and valves make noise if they are bent..all the time...even without combustion....
A Rod Knocking because of a spun bearing might sound like its coming from the top...and might be silent without combustion....
I am really afraid that without an actual audio clip/video clip of som kind...thats as far as I can get you....and you might have to tear into the motor to find out....
do an oil change...take the oil for analysis....also look for a "goldish"or "bronze" color in the oil....that would be a sure sign of a spun bearing.....
A Rod Knocking because of a spun bearing might sound like its coming from the top...and might be silent without combustion....
I am really afraid that without an actual audio clip/video clip of som kind...thats as far as I can get you....and you might have to tear into the motor to find out....
do an oil change...take the oil for analysis....also look for a "goldish"or "bronze" color in the oil....that would be a sure sign of a spun bearing.....
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,125
Likes: 4
From: Alexandria, VA
My buddy has my dig cam and he's on base in NC right now and won't be home for a couple weeks. It sounds like you're taking a ball peen hammer and hitting the plastic intake really hard (go out and try it 
but that is almost exactly what it sounds like). So basically just picture a bad lifter hitting every time the motor turns. Does that help?
but that is almost exactly what it sounds like). So basically just picture a bad lifter hitting every time the motor turns. Does that help? 
Hey what was the name of the guy you got the car from? Did it have a cam in it already? It sounds familiar.
TR pushrods doesnt tell anyone anything you need to state that they are 7.35 or 7.40 pushrods.
You said the timing was off, then you fixed and restarted it and it ran the same way. What do you mean the timing was off? You had the cam gear clocked wrong? If you started it like that you could have bent some valves. Do you know how to check the preload on the rockers? That should be your next step, after the motor is hot and the lifters have some pressure in them check the preload
TR pushrods doesnt tell anyone anything you need to state that they are 7.35 or 7.40 pushrods.
You said the timing was off, then you fixed and restarted it and it ran the same way. What do you mean the timing was off? You had the cam gear clocked wrong? If you started it like that you could have bent some valves. Do you know how to check the preload on the rockers? That should be your next step, after the motor is hot and the lifters have some pressure in them check the preload
Originally Posted by ws6SSmaniac
the only thing i can think of that might solve your problem...if you said you took off the valve covers and turned the engine over and heard no knocking and it only knocks when there is combustion, you may either have pre-ignition or detonation...check to make sure your spark plug gap is .060...looks like a lot of gap but it works, also if you have a plus 4 plug or something with more than one prong, take those out and but a regular single prong in...sound to me like your ignition is either too hot or too cold...what is your oil pressure at? if its less than 25 or so at idle your o-ring where the oil pick up tube meets the oil pump may be broken, causing lifters to lose their prime and collapse...and did you prime your filters before installing them?
Originally Posted by GrannySShifting
You dont detonate at idle makign 5 ft lbs of torque
also am i the only one that read that write up J-rod did where he spoke about timing, detonation, pre-ignition, and all that, and how he talked about people mistaking the 2 all the time and how pre-ignition could destroy our engines in less than a second, so he couldn't possibly have pre-ignition. Most likely it would be slitghty bent pushrod, valves or like the other guy said check your oil for debree if you find any it just could be a spun bearing. I don't see how you could have spun a bearing from a cam change but cheking the oil couldn't hurt, specially since your next step would must likely be tearing the top end down or posibly the engine. O man i don't envy you you got a hell of a week or two ahead of you, all i can say is good luck man and here is a toast hoping you make it alright. 
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,125
Likes: 4
From: Alexandria, VA
Haha thanks zamboxyl. I'm gonna need many more of those toasts to feel alright after all this.
GrannySS, I got the car from a guy named Joe in Rockville, he worked at an Audi delaership at the time (auto italia or something like that, i dunno). But, it did not have a cam in it (at least when I bought it back in January of '03). I am using the stock length TR 7.400 pushrods.
GrannySS, I got the car from a guy named Joe in Rockville, he worked at an Audi delaership at the time (auto italia or something like that, i dunno). But, it did not have a cam in it (at least when I bought it back in January of '03). I am using the stock length TR 7.400 pushrods.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,125
Likes: 4
From: Alexandria, VA
Originally Posted by white2001s10
did you do a leak-down on every cylinder?