CamTom12

iTrader: (1)

Here's the deal:
A lot of guys Tim and I race with read this board. That and Tim's very tight-lipped about his set-up. Any information he has to give for help like this is given in generalities, very few specifics. I'm not posting his cam designer up here because that's his business to do (or not) because its his set up. Also, I don't like throwing big names around to try and prove my point (but he is a board sponsor). If you don't believe me, I'm not going to list phone numbers and waste a lot more peoples' time to prove my point, cause that'd be a little immature and selfish of me. If you don't believe me, just move on and go fight with someone else. I'm done arguing on the internet, it's friggin retarded.

Adrenaline_Z

Predator,

With all due respect, I've been around.

Raising compression while having higher cylinder pressure creates problems.

You don't need to raise compression when the motor is eating a good amount
of charge.

In this context, the reason you add static compression is to restore the kick that is otherwise
lost from a cam that bleeds off charge; or a motor that has weak volumetric
efficiency.

What some of you don't understand is by raising compressoin, you have to
reduce timing, and take away charge volume which contains more combustion
energy per c.c. than the equivalent in subtracting compression height c.c.

It is BETTER to lower compression and fill with more charge, than to raise
comrpession and band-aid the tuning.

Again, I challenge anyone to post a credible link, or engine tuner phone number.

Nobody has proven me wrong yet.

Adrenaline_Z

I was expecting such an answer.

Stop acting like your buddy`s motor contains the Caramilk secret.

The engine tuner / cam designer wont have a problem talking to me about
tuning in gerenal. It`s not as if he has someone`s engine config stamped in
his brain and he wants to spill it. Please

Post the number of your imaginary cam designer.

This isn`t fighting...it`s called weeding out the BS.

Start posting some links, and back up your talk. I can`t believe some of the
info coming from these posts.

Just admit that you`re out of your league, or back it up.

ty_ty13

iTrader: (42)

looks like to me some one isnt very familiar with the new technology in lsx motors... low compression for turbos and blowers.... high compression for juice. and yes with both if you go to very drastic measures high octane (100+) must be used. i think any thing from 8.8-11 CR is very manageable on pump 93 oct. on an LSX motor

PREDATOR-Z

Adrenaline,
I've personally shot wet and dry on various LSx motors well into the 250rwhp range, believe me when i say that with LSx head design and it's superb chambers, the more CR, the more power.
Most recently was my 01 that by just running a thinner gasket, therefore a tighter quench and 2 cc less I got an increase of ~2% hp with same tune. And this was not a one off, but every time I used it.
The more CR you run, the tighter quench should be used for better flame/ combustion.

You simply cannot apply SBC/BBC thinking with the LSx. It is an alltogether different animal.

CamTom12

iTrader: (1)

I know JRP's running 12.+ in his on Cali pump-gas. You're right, these things are entirely different animals

An earlier point that was made, you do need to lower timing a bit with a big shot to adjust where peak cylinder pressures occur (back further past ATDC. With lots of N2O it'll happen too early).

Adrenaline_Z

Damn, it's like talking to brick walls.

Cylinder pressure is increased with nitrous, turbo's, or Superchargers - fact.

Compression must be reduced when cylinder pressures are increased - fact.

The better combination is to drop compression and keep timing advanced
with pump gas.

The opposite leaves you with less opportunity to ingest charge - because
you can't compress and high volume charge at high ratios without creating
combustion irregularities (detonation).

Whether it's a LSx motor, or not, the same principles apply. The LSx being a
superior motor over any previous generation design does not defy the laws of
combustion.

Until I see a link, or a phone number you can all consider yourself bench tuners.

I think with all of the views in this thread, you boys are needing to step up
and prove yourselves.

I'm quite happy with my background in engine tuning and supported links/engine
tuner contacts.

P.S. Look up the specs on nitrous pistons and check out the crown heights and
dome volume...

PREDATOR-Z

Who is the brick wall??
I've OWNED 4 LSx motors, all on nitrous injection (dry/or wet), 2 of which ran 12.2:1,
both of these by doing cam only first then milling/portmatched heads and both had better % increase while using gas.

I don't give a F*** what link you contact, I'm talking live experience for 6 years now.
I only have one think to say

CamTom12

iTrader: (1)

Hey Predator, what's/where's UAE?

Adrenaline_Z

I repeat for the brick walls

The better combination is to drop compression and keep timing advanced
with pump gas.

The better combination is to drop compression and keep timing advanced
with pump gas.

The better combination is to drop compression and keep timing advanced
with pump gas.


more combustion space to stick in more charge is the BETTER combination.

Why don't you READ instead of replying.

Stick more charge into the chamber with LESS compression.

IOW: The ability to run more timing advance, more nitrous, etc.

How else do I need to explain this to these certain few?

****, let's just raise the compressoin to 99:1 and get 2 cc's of charge.

Maybe then we can create about 0.2 ft.lbs. of torque

ty_ty13

iTrader: (42)

doesnt even look like to own an LSX motor looks like a SBC... so why would you refuse information from guys who do own them.

most of these guys are atleast in the 10's very easily with nitrous... I'd think we'd know how to treat our own motors...

stock we have 10:1 and vettes have 10.5:1 from the factory... i dont think .5 - 1 compression is going to effect us like you think.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-engineering-tech/111207-ls1-head-combustion-chamber-cc-volume-vs-cr.html

Adrenaline_Z

No I don't own a LSx, but what's your point?

The fact still remains (read above).

Please stop the BS and find me a link anywhere from a credible source that
states raising comrpession on nitrous or boost is beneficial.

Until then, stop the useless come backs and trying to discredit me.

Maybe the tech mods can delete any reply that doesn't contain a link
or phone number of someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

Adrenaline_Z

Tim, or Tom

Post your cam specs so we can talk DCR.

Let's put this to rest.

If you're not willing to post the engine specs, then it's a useless debate.

97M6Formula

iTrader: (6)

IM not arguing that I completely agree for pump gas to drop cr and raise timing.. hwta I am saying though is that if you run race gas you can have both worlds more timing more compression more boost/nitrous.. I will be running 11:5:1 NA and 150 shot on the street and will be taking out 2-4 degrees for a larger 200-250 shot I am currently making a stand alone cell with some c16 so i wont have to pull timing.. I still have to tune it so I am not sure what timing I am going to run but I will let you know when I do... I am by no means claiming I know everything.. All I am saying is that a motor with 9:5:1 static and a 150 shot and a motor with the same everything but 10:5:1 and a 150 shot the 10:5:1 will make more power.

PREDATOR-Z

That is SBC thinking, been there done it.

Get it through YOUR thick skull, SBC protocol does not apply to LSx motors.
The only thing they have in common is they are both 5.7 liters 90* V8's from the same company..

Oh, Lord why am I wasting my breath

BTW Dubai is a city in United Arab Emirates (UAE), facing Iran across the Persian Gulf, above Saudi Arabia. I work for Emirates Airline.

Adrenaline_Z

97M6,

You have been misunderstanding me from the beginning

I agree! 10.5:1 WILL make more power in this case. But if you read
back to my earlier posts, I mention that 11:1 is about a high as you want to
go with pump gas (considering DCR ultimately).

For those that want to run 11:1 static CR, on pump gas with an early closing
intake AND NITROUS are going about it all the wrong way.

Predator, I will walk all over you in engine tech. You have no idea what you're
stating.

have you every tried a low comrpession motor with more timing and more nitrous?

Guess not because you wouldn't spew that nonsense otherwise. Ifyou can
increase the charge pressure with timing, you get more force against the piston
to make more power.

Plain and simple.

Do some research and call some people instead of sitting on your tunnel vision
tech.

PREDATOR-Z

LOL
That is why my "no idea LS1", will fly by your "Tech SBC Z", and that is without N2O, I can garantee that.

As it says in YOUR sig, "when the green flag drops, the Bullshit stops"

Adrenaline_Z

Your car is faster, therefore, you must know more...

I guess it means nothing that I worked in a speed shop for several years?

Those all aluminum 6 second alcohol motors are nothing compared to your
LS1!

ty_ty13

iTrader: (42)

This should clear it up

Frequently Asked Questions!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have combined all of my other posts from the other site into one big one. There is a lot of good information here for newbies. Enjoy and Spray Safe.

TNT Wiring Diagram
Colonel's Tech Files
NOS 5177 Instal Manual
NOS Bottle Heater
NOS Bottle Opener
Nitrous Express Install Docs

Here are some Q's and A's for you. Enjoy!

Q: Will Nitrous affect engine reliability?
A: The key is choosing the correct H.P. for a given application. A kit that uses the correct factory calibration does not usually cause increased wear. As the energy released in the cylinder increases so do the loads on the various components that must handle them. If the load increases exceed the ability of the components to handle them, added wear takes place. Nitrous kits are designed for use on demand and only at wide open throttle. Nitrous can be extremely advantageous in that it is only used when you want it, not all the time. Most Nitrous kits are designed for maximum power with reliability for a given application.

Q: Can I simply bolt a nitrous kit onto my stock engine?
A: Yes. Most manufactures systems for virtually any stock engine application. The key is to choose the correct kit for a given application; i.e., 4 cyl. engines normally allow an extra 40-60 HP, 6 cyl. engines usually work great between 75-100 extra HP, small block V8's (302/350/400cid) can typically accept up to 140 extra HP, and big block V8's (427-454) might accept from 125-200 extra HP. These suggested ranges provide maximum reliability from most stock engines using cast pistons and cast crank with few or no engine modifications.

Q: What are some of the general rules for even higher HP gains?
A: Generally, forged aluminum pistons are one of best modifications you can make. Retard ignition timing by 4-8 degrees (1 to 1-1/2 degrees timing retard per 50 HP gain). In many cases a higher flowing fuel pump may be necessary. Higher octane (100+) racing type fuel may be required as well as spark plugs 1 to 2 heat ranges colder than normal with gaps closed to .025"-.030". For gains over 250 HP, other important modifications could be necessary in addition to those mentioned above. These special modifications may include a forged crankshaft, a high quality race type connecting rods, a high output fuel pump dedicated to feeding the additional fuel demands of the nitrous system, and a racing fuel with high specific gravity and an octane rating of 110 or more.

Q: How does nitrous work?
A: Nitrous oxide is made up of 2 parts nitrogen and one part oxygen (36% oxygen by weight). During the combustion process in an engine, at about 572 degrees F, nitrous breaks down and releases oxygen. This extra oxygen creates additional power by allowing more fuel to be burned. Nitrogen acts to buffer, or dampen the increased cylinder pressures helping to control the combustion process. Nitrous also has a tremendous "intercooling" effect by reducing intake charge temperatures by 60 to 75 degrees F.

Q: How much performance improvement can I expect with a nitrous system?
A: For many applications an improvement from .5 to 3 full seconds and 5 to 15 MPH in the quarter mile can be expected. Factors such as engine size, tires, jetting, gearing, etc. will affect the final results.

Q: How long will the bottle last?
A: This largely depends on the type of nitrous kit and jetting used. For example, a 125 HP Power Shot kit with a standard 10 lb. capacity bottle will usually offer up to 7 to 10 full quarter-mile passes. For power levels of 250 HP, 3 to 5 full quarter-mile passes may be expected. If nitrous is only used in 2nd and 3rd gears, the number of runs will be more.

Q: How long can I hold the nitrous button down?
A: It is possible to hold the button down until the bottle is empty. However 15 continuous seconds at a time, or less, is recommended.

Q: When is the best time to use nitrous?
A: At wide open throttle only (unless a progressive controller is used). Due to the tremendous amount of increased torque, you will generally find best results, traction permitting, at early activation. Nitrous can be safely applied above 3,000 RPM under full throttle conditions.

Q: Is nitrous oxide flammable?
A: No. Nitrous Oxide by itself is non-flammable. However, the oxygen present in nitrous oxide causes combustion of fuel to take place more rapidly.

Q: Will nitrous oxide cause detonation?
A: Not directly. Detonation is the result of too little fuel present during combustion (lean) or too low of an octane of fuel. Too much ignition advance also causes detonation. In general, most kits engineered for stock type engines will work well with premium type fuels and minimal decreases of ignition timing. In racing application where higher compression ratios are used, resulting in higher cylinder pressures, a higher fuel octane must be used as well as more ignition retard.

Q: Is there any performance increase in using medical grade nitrous oxide?
A: None! Most sell only the automotive grade, called Ny-trous Plus. Ny-trous Plus contains a minimal amount of sulfur dioxide (100 ppm) as a deterrent to substance abuse. The additive does not affect performance.

Q: Is it a good idea to use an aftermarket computer program in conjunction with an ntrous System?
A: Only if the program has been designed specifically for use with nitrous oxide. Most aftermarket programs use more aggressive timing advance curves to create more power. This can lead to possible detonation. You may wish to check with the manufacturer of the program before using it.

Q: Does nitrous oxide raise cylinder pressure and temperatures?
A: Yes. Due to the ability to burn more fuel, this is exactly why nitrous makes so much power.

Q: Are there any benefits to chilling the nitrous bottle?
A: No. Chilling the bottle lowers the pressure dramatically and will also lower the flow rate of the nitrous causing a fuel rich condition and reducing power. On cold evenings you might run on the rich side. For optimal running conditions, keep bottle pressure at approximately 900-1050 psi.

Q: Are there benefits to using nitrous with turbo or super-charger applications?
A: Absolutely! In turbo applications, turbo lag is completely eliminated with the addition of a nitrous system. In addition, both turbo and superchargers compress the incoming air, thus heating it. With the injection of nitrous, a tremendous intercooling effect reduces intake charge temperatures by 75 degrees or more. Boost is usually increased as well, adding to even more power.

Q: What affect does nitrous have on an engine with considerable miles on it?
A: This depends largely on the actual condition of the engine components. Any performance modification to an engine that is worn out or poorly tuned will have detrimental effects. However, an engine in good condition, with good ring and head gasket sealing, should be able to use nitrous without any abnormal wear.

Q: Will the use of nitrous oxide affect the catalytic converter?
A: No. The increase in oxygen present in the exhaust may actually increase the efficiency of the converter. Since the use of nitrous is normally limited to 10-20 seconds of continuous use, there usually are no appreciable effects. Temperatures are typically well within acceptable standards.

Q: Can high compression engines utilize nitrous oxide?
A: Absolutely. High or low compression ratios can work quite suitably with nitrous oxide provided the proper balance of nitrous and fuel enrichment is maintained. Nitrous kits are used in applications from relatively low compression stock type motors to Pro-Modifieds, which often exceed 15 to 1. Generally, the higher the compression ratio, the more ignition retard, as well as higher octane fuel, is required.

Q: Can service station fuel be used for street/strip nitrous oxide applications?
A: Yes. Use of a premium type leaded or unleaded fuel of 92, or greater, octane is recommended for most applications. Many nitrous systems are designed for use with service station pump gas. However, when higher compression or higher horsepower levels are used, a racing fuel of 100 octane, or more, must be used.

Q: What type of cam is best suited for use with nitrous oxide?
A: Generally, cams that have less exhaust overlap and more exhaust duration. However, it is best to choose a cam tailored to normal use (when nitrous is not activated) since 99% of most vehicle operations is not at full throttle. There are special cam grinds available for nitrous competition which have more aggressive exhaust profile ramping, etc. Since cam selection depends largely on vehicle weight, gearing, etc., it is best to stick to cam manufacturers' recommendations for your particular goal.

Q: Should I modify my fuel system to use nitrous oxide?
A: Most stock fuel pumps will work adequately for smaller nitrous applications. It is important to check to see if your pump can flow enough fuel to your existing fuel system (whether carburetor or fuel injected), as well as being able to supply the additional fuel required by the nitrous kit under full throttle conditions. It may be a good idea to dedicate a separate fuel pump to the nitrous kit.
__________________
Chad

FM-13/PP LS6 Heads, FULL Bolt On with a TNT Shot. (M6)

FM11 + Hooker
FM11 + True Duals
FM13 Clip on the way...

Black02SS
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02-18-2004, 02:37 PM

gator's 99TA

iTrader: (2)

hmmm i have a 383 LT1 (SBC with stupid heads), 18 psi of boost, 50 shot of nitrous, 9/1 compression pistons. mine are probably too high of a compression huh? lol

10.1/1 compression, stock head, big cam (not a 3/4 cam sonny) lol, and spray a 150 shot wet out of the hole. this is the ls1.

i guess we cant all run 13.2@ 105....git er dun bitches.