If you have Futral Motorsports tune your car - I promise Allan will get you in the 550RWHP ballpark and possibly more! That combo has a ton of potential. It just depends who builds and tunes it.

Remember, the LS1's love big cams with high lift so call Allan and see what he thinks he can get for you in the way of HP. I did and I love my set-up. Two fo my other buddies have gone to Futral as well and all of us are in the 550+ range.

 

i have a 402 made by smc with the afr 225 and made 531rwhp on a mustang dyno at hpe.

 

If my memory serves me right the heads were around 62 cc's after we did a clean up cut...you had right at or slightly over 11 to 1 based on how far your pistons are out of the hole with the .040 Cometics we used.

Tony M.

PS.....Good to hear she is running well.

 

per Don:

"We made alot of pulls that day varying timing/A/F across the board.The A/F was at 13-1 across on many pulls.Timing was varied from 22-30 degree's with very similar results.Which means that is all the combo would make OR there is a restriction somewhere which I would point towards the exhaust setup "

its not the tuning...


um, i paid the same price for my heads as you advertise for your STG 1's. where's the cheapness come from?! they were having a GP, you werent, so i bought them from them. my heads came in a TEA box and had TEA CNC invoice, i'll dig it up if i can find it. CNC work was done by you, valve job and assembly was done by Brad. Steve said the valve job was "Ok", could it of been improved upon, yes, but it wasnt straight ****. i bought the heads over a year ago; before you guys changed your business model not to take responsiblity for outsourced heads.


i bought the heads because they had the TEA name attached to them. however, unlike most people i had my **** independently tested and found out they were ****. thats what opened my eyes to alot of what goes on around here. even negating Tony's data i've seen plenty of other vendors heads not flow or spec out to what there sposed to. Including TEA; i've never seen any independent confirmation or duplication of TEA's astronomical exhaust port numbers. all the head porters i've talked too, being professional, have stated your claims as "optimistic". unless TEA has found the holy grail of exhaust port work and has the mitas touch it leaves me to believe either; your full of ****, or your testing apperatus and/or methodology is false. and seeing as how you dont have a standardized bench...

and speaking of stalling i've seen independent data showing TEA ports backing up at .575 lift. just because im not a nutswinger im a TEA hater . i KNOW TEA is capable of great port work, im not naive or ignorant. however, i dont blindly believe something is so just because its advertised as such...

regarding Pat, he increased compression a full point, increased cam duration, reworked heads, and multiple tuning configurations and he picked up a measily 6whp and 6rwtq. i just find it funny that everyone was saying "wait till a REAL head porter gets ahold of an AFR casting". is PDD's the end all be all of TEA/AFR heads, no. but it stands to reason that the out the box 205 can hold its own and then some.

did you start off with an AS CAST AFR head or rework his 205? from what im gathering you reworked his 205. if so did you get a delta for before and after?

here's what Pat says his heads flow:

.1000 68.8
.2000 146.8
.3000 205.5
.4000 251.9
.5000 292.5
.5500 307.9
.6000 316.9


.1000 59.5
.2000 124.1
.3000 184.1
.4000 227.7
.5000 252.3
.5500 263.4
.6000 268.2




and meanwhile Scott (Sidestep) is hitting 440rwhp with milled 205's out the box, FM13, with cats, NO EWP, NO 90/90. not to mention peak tq was 420 with 350rwtq being available from 2500rpm. if you recall another guy had a similar setup only including a 90/90, TD's dumped, only in an Fbody and running TEA 1.5's. put out near the same peak hp but was down nearly 25 peak ft-lbs of tq and loads under the curve. yes, not an apples to apples but it makes you think....

anyway, we could go back and forth all day, i've said my piece. you want to "discuss" this further you know how to PM or email me...

 

I would leave the 225's untouched,out of the box.I have yet to see a ported AFR head make decent result's.The Heads Tony put's out works

BTW -Our 408 Car put out 530rwhp with the box stock 225's and 244 Cam.

 

I'am installing the motor this weekend and hopefully next weekend it will be tuned and it would have gone to the dyno already. by the way they builder is LME and the heads are afr 225's milled to 66cc or 67cc cant remember but they are straight out of the box... as soon as I dyno it I'll post up the results.

 

Keep us posted on the progress....


Per this post I have only one thing to say...



0wn3d...

 

yikes... that had to hurt.

 

 

I have yet to see a 400"+ LSX motor make less than 500 rwhp with 225's CNC'ed from AFR right out of the box. Most are in the 530 range and above. Can't say that for all the brand X heads out there. I know there are lots of TEA fans out there, but let's not let their "advertised" flow numbers fool you into thinking they'll make more actual power. Chassis dyno numbers tell a lot and tend to be more consistent from shop to shop than flow numbers. Buy the heads that are putting down the power. AFR 225s are flat kicking *** in the hp department. Don't get suckered in by big "advertised" flow numbers alone....Independent validation of those numbers has been weak at best. The dyno tells the real story.

 

update: I have received the motor, Iam breaking it in but as soon as I get dyno pulls into it I'll post them up, that way you'll be able to see how much rwhp the car makes with afr 225's out of the box..

 

Pewter...

Saw your car on another thread.
Car and install looks very "sano"....nice job.

I'm looking foward to seeing some numbers of course....Keep us posted. Let us know about driving impressions as well....the design approach of the AFR's offer typically more than just big peak power figures.

Patrick....

ONE blue pill a day man....I know they can be addicting

Regards,
Tony

 

as of right now the car has really good driving conditions, I was impressed because I didnt have a tune but it drove great... I just got a tune to break in the motor and hopefully if everything comes out as planned I will be getting my car tuned next weekend...

 

 

Looks like P-Diddy is about ready for a "blue pill" and a glimpse into the "real world"
(Pat...You can't say I didn't try and offer you one quite some time ago!)

Here is something I would like to share with you guys that has direct relevance to one of the topics being discussed in this thread. The names and faces have all been changed to protect the innocent, but the bottom line is this is a PM that was sent to me by someone very respected on this board. While I might have gotten blasted by a few individuals for my suggesting that an AFR out of the box would serve most of the community better, this PM kind of backs up the point I was trying to make.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by (Name withheld)

Tony you wrote this: ""

Consider this....
Has ANYONE posted above average numbers with reworked or modified AFR's?? (Note: above average when compared to an out of the box AFR in a similar combination...).

Ive seen a few results that might have went the other way....

Save your money guys....IF you ran across the "holy grail" set of ported heads (big "IF"), AFR castings or otherwise, and combined it with the perfect combination to take advantage of them, perhaps you could find a little more horsepower. But the likelihood (and cost) of that happening is slim in my opinion based on what I have personally tested and what we have witnessed at various shops and on the Internet in general.

You might be spending a little more money for the AFR's but your already getting a top shelf extremely optimized efficient piece with proven performance. Spending more money, IMHO at best is the point of very diminishing returns, at worst you just spent more money to go slower. Choose your combination wisely with an out of the box AFR CNC head, couple that with a good install and tune, and you are sure to make big numbers when the smoke clears. If not then at least you can blame it on me and not yourself....

Tony M.""


I know here in (city withheld), (shop withheld) has ported several of your heads for a guy that may come over to me now since their version of the AFRs consistently make LESS power than out of the box. But they are much more expensive which is cool! Obviously this is not for public consumption but it is an example of what you were talking about. [QUOTE]


Just thought this information was worth sharing....I did get the blessing from the individual who sent me this PM before I decided to post it by the way.

Thanks guys,
Tony M.

 

The flow bench wars are so comical. There is little to no correlation between flow numbers and hp because some companies choose to publish flow numbers using benches that are not widely used. TEA for example uses a Flow Data bench. From what I understand, the Flow Data benches are very reliable and repeatable, but the problem is their numbers typically are much higher than those that come from a Superflow 600 (the industry standard). TEA heads usually show to be 10-15 numbers higher on the intake side and 30+ numbers better on the exhaust. If these numbers were comparable to SF600 numbers, then you'd be seeing most cars with TEA heads making 10-15 rwhp more than cars running competitor's heads with comparable mods.

I'm not seeing it. It's like trying to compare chassis dyno numbers from a Mustang Dyno to those from a Dynojet. If the majority of the shops used Mustang dynos, but another shop used a Dynojet (but didn't disclose it), wouldn't they sell lots more parts because of their higher "advertised" hp numbers? You better believe they would. It's all perfectly legal too because it's not lying, it's called advertising and marketing, LOL.

Bottom line, inflated flow bench numbers sell heads, but often they leave a bad taste in the mouths of those who were mislead and made less power than expected. If we can't get head porters to publish numbers based on an industry standard, then we'll be pretty much in the position we're in now, basing our decisions by who's making the most power and who's going the fastest at the track. Maybe that's the way it should be anyway.

 

Ok lets see he is getting 12 MPG for fuel enconomy. I am sure his tune is perfect? He posted his best run with 12:1 AFR


We have never taken resposibilty for flow of a CNC only job. Too many people screw it up. You assummed because we CNC machined the heads they were good. Fact is valve job and port blending can make a 30+cfm difference in head.


Again if you think you can buy heads that we do CNC only work on from another company and expect us to stand behind the flow your not living in the real world



however, unlike most people i had my **** independently tested and found out they were ****. thats what opened my eyes to alot of what goes on around here. even negating Tony's data i've seen plenty of other vendors heads not flow or spec out to what there sposed to. Including TEA; i've never seen any independent confirmation or duplication of TEA's astronomical exhaust port numbers. all the head porters i've talked too, being professional, have stated your claims as "optimistic". unless TEA has found the holy grail of exhaust port work and has the mitas touch it leaves me to believe either; your full of ****, or your testing apperatus and/or methodology is false. and seeing as how you dont have a standardized bench......[/QUOTE] They were not our product...you should bash GM cause they made the castings.or the valve manufacture for making such crappy flowing valves. Your biased because your FFHP heads did not flow. Since you got them from FFHP I would say your anger is misplaced. Be mad at them or yourself for not coming to the source. Truth is I have no way of even knowing if we CNC ported your heads to begin with! How many sets that were ported CNC ported by others got sent out with our name on them?





our old valve job (from 3 years ago stalled. Our new valve job does not.

but its the heads fault?lol
[QUOTE=jrp] i just find it funny that everyone was saying "wait till a REAL head porter gets ahold of an AFR casting"[QUOTE]I find it funny when someone changes multiple things and automatically it is the heads at fault.

Pats existing heads were modified, are they the end all be all? No did we say they are? No are they better than they was by a good margin on our bench? yes.

[QUOTE=jrp]did you start off with an AS CAST AFR head or rework his 205? from what im gathering you reworked his 205. if so did you get a delta for before and after?[QUOTE]yes we did

Pats existing heads were modified by us.



were these done on the same dyno? were they tuned the same way (12:1 below peak torque?) Does he also get 12 MPG around town and think his tune was spot on?
Your biased and have no business being a moderator, you have misplaced anger towards us for your poor performing FFHP heads and have constantly blamed us for your you heads poor performance.:why:

 

I'm sure this has already been answered what would an out of the box set of 66cc AFR225s set the comp ratio too on a flat top 4.030 (-2cc valve relief) pistoned 408 with MLS gaskets? standard 4.000 inch stroke and 6.125 stroke.

Also who do you guys like as far as selling them out of the box?

 

Mike, the only way to get a 225 AFR head with a 66cc chamber is to mill it. They do not have a small chamber 225 head available yet.

 

funny thing Patrick. Our bench is a "happy" bench and yet an AFR 205 head flows within 3 CFM of what they advertise on our bench.hmm thats strange. Why doesnt a SF600 flow the same numbers as a sf1020? Are they not made by the same people? Shouldn't they show the same flow number?



If one is a Corvette and the other is a Chevette what one would you believe? How many sets of our heads have you tested lately? How many sets have you tried? What heads are on your car now?
I always wonder why people assume it is the heads fault. He has already stated he is getting 12 mpg with the car. The Air fuel ratio was jacked up on the dyno reading as low as 12:1 before peak tq. If the Air fuel ratio is that bad how is the rest of the tune? Does install make a difference? Is the camshaft matched to the heads? I know people like the FMS cams but we have seen better resultswith our heads using large splits then the 2* offered on most of them.