preload and installed height wern't checked at all??

spring height can change from spring to spring. this should always be checked. i've been burned by shops not paying attention to details before. i hate seeing half-assed work from shops that charge a premium for service.

 

ON any customer provided parts, the customer is warned that if you want us to check anything there is an additional cost. I'm sorry, but in this business where the profits are extremely low I cannot give away free labor. On any of my installed packages, EVERYTHING is checked because that is included with my package. If you buy a "PACKAGE" from a vendor, you expect it to work correctly that is why you are paying the premium for their R&D work. As stated already, you buy a package from a vendor it includes everything that is needed to install correctly. Not trying to drag other companies in, but companies like LG and Thunder that sell cam packages have done their R&D work and include the correct length pushrods. Why is this so hard if supposedly you have came up with this great combination, why was the R&D work that you pay for by buying a package from a vendor not done?

I'm not going to argue this point to death, there are going to be people that see it my way and people that see it his way. Bottom line is if you buy a package it should be 100% ready to bolt-in. It's not like the customer told Ed he wants a XXX/XXX cam and brand X heads. Ed recommended a package and the components did not work. Whose fault is that? The customer or Ed's?

 

Wouldn't you agree that the "combinations" in question are a little more of a stealthy daily driveable car as opposed to a more race orientated "package"? I like to think of each specifically designed combination as exactly what an individual wants. However to each his own.

Pretty impressive results on your cam & heads/cam dynograph's, but as always records were meant to be broken.

 

i agree that the pushrods should be the correct length as it can be figured. what i am saying is that no matter what, you will have to check spring install height.

let's say lg sends you a package including valve springs. the install height can vary greatly from valve to valve because of variances in the head casting. this can not be checked for by the person selling the springs. it must be checked by the person installing the springs.

how on earth would someone without the car in front of them know the install height? they could give a ballpark is all.

if your charges don't include the time to check installed spring heights during a cam swap, they should. install height should always be checked as it is part of the assembly. if the heads come with springs the install height should be checked by the person assembling them. either way it needs to be done.

not checking install heights is gambling with someone else's motor. you definetly won't get that opportunity on one of my motors.

 

I agree with this. Normally you receive a package (heads/cam pushrods) the springs are already installed on the heads and everything is ready to bolt in.

There is a big difference in time required to just install something versus checking every spring for isntalled height and every pushrod for correct preload.

Ed SHOULD have made sure the pushrods were the correct length. He sent everything to the customer as a ready to install PACKAGE.

I dont blame Matt one bit. His results speak for itself imo...

Maybe Matt you should just charge to check this stuff regardless, in case someone else messes up.

 

Gentlemen,
The problem was solved. Customer is satistfied (so it seems).
The rest is just tarnishing EVERYBODY's image.

This is time to lock this thread. IMO.

 

I Agree with you 100% and the proper labor would have been charged & installed height would have been checked.. But, the heads came to us with the valvesprings/valves/seals/retainers/spring seats assembled, so why would I pull apart Ed's work (Which he should have checked installed height, etc.) and redo them?

This cam is definitely not stealthy. It lumps just as hard as our Equalizer cam, yet our cam makes 70-100 more RWHP with AFR heads...

 

EDC: Quick question for you... How many cars, have you personally, put together? I know for a fact you don't do your own work or tuning. So what basis do you have to say I cannot install or tune a car correctly?

 

i agree with you 100% as well. since the heads came assembled the springs should've been checked allready and it dosn't need to be done again. the p-rods should've been correct in the first place as well, but it appears that is no fault on your part.

sorry for the harsh words earlier in the thread. i've been taken before (not by your shop) and i can get a little hot headed when i think people are being taken advantage of.

again my appologies.

 

THanks for the apologies. I have seen a lot of work done by other shops and have fixed a lot of other shops cars... I can see how you would be weary of people getting screwed, I am too, that is why I put my 2 cents in on this issue.

No problem Kit. Anything you need in the future let me know, no hard feelings.

 

Matt SHOULD have checked valvetrain geometry and verified lifter preload while doing this install. There is no way that Ed can calculate the exact pushrod length for every application-there are just too many variables here.

It says right on his cam cards: "CHECK valvetrain geometry! This is imperative for optimum performance of this camshaft." What part of this do you not understand?

Matt, as a reputable shop you should explain to your customers that extra labor for checking pushrod geometry and installed height ARE NECESSARY. Especially when you are installing a package that is custom, and unfamiliar to you. Your statement about your cam making 70-100 more rwhp is true, but from way out in right field, upper deck probably. The two setups are completely different, one is street and yours is an all out race hydraulic setup.

Any chance your going to BG? Your car is one of only a few 346's making 500+ hyd.-I just would like to see how it actually runs at the dragstrip, since thats what this game is all about.

 

I will argue back until I'm out of breath-regardless of what Ed recommended-at no point did he say that it was 100% ready to bolt in, or just throw it together (as you did), and it will work. Valvetrain geometry should be checked on every setup, especially on those that haven't been done 1000's of times (i.e. lg g5x4, tr230, tr224, etc. etc. etc.) The reason we "know" what pushrod length to use in these application is because someone has taken the time to do the install correctly, and filled us in on their results.

How many times have you installed this exact edc cam, head, and valve spring/lifter combo? Zero-hmmmm.

cough, cough...read the cam card!

It is not the customers fault, nor Ed's for your failure to install this package correctly.

 

Well Matt,

You have now proven you are no better in "your" ways than the shop you so viciously attacked for "their" attitude... Cartek, be forewarned!

Next time you call Dez... why not ask him about the projects I've built and/or had some involvement with. Many very successful ones that were built long before you were even driving, let alone playing speed shop owner...

What makes you spout out that you "know for a fact that I do not do any of my own work or tuning?" The work performed at Dez's shop? I'll just have to assume you are making comment because I had the guys at Dez Racing (Brian and Don) do the HCI install on the GTO. I never hid that information from anyone involved the project at all... However... Do you even know the facts behind that deal? Nope!

You didn't know about the extremely short timeframe and "behind the scenes" details on that project and why it was farmed out to a "professional shop". You don't know a single thing about the magazine deal, the manufacturer's pressure and the shop's involvement. Yet you make such a stupid blanket statement about what I do. Grasping at straws to cover up this error on your part?? Sideskirting the real issue again??? Get some facts before you stoop to insulting the experienced people...

Bottomline, your inexperience with this particular installation, as well as the blame shifting in this thread, which have really showed me your true colors... You're whole attitude in business is no better (and possible worse) than the Cartek people you so highly criticized...

Now... What about the "tuning" issue on this car that you seemed to avoid... You had to be told which direction to go on that tune by an outside person, a non-shop owner to boot! He wasn't even on the premises but did a better job sorting out that car than you. How about that "small" item Matt?

As for the "package" not being correct as shipped... Laziness at it's fullest on your shop's part. As any experienced installer can tell you, there is no way to check or verify the valvetrain geometry or preload without having the vehicle in person. That's why people go to a professional shop for an installation. To make sure it all fits. If you had checked the items in question during the install, as you were charging this customer for, any discrepencies would have shown up right away.

Things are not just "cut and dry" in the performance world. They don't just jump out of a box and fall into place. However, with you being so new at this, you may not have learned this yet... Things called "accumulated tolerances" are an everyday occurance in the performance world...

For example, let talk about aftermarket intake manifolds. Nearly all of them do not fit as manufactured right out of the box. Some kind of machining is usually required to make them fit the heads and block properly and a good shop will do this. If you doubt this really happens because you just "bolt everything in", just ask Brian Tooley about it. He's been around the block a few times and can verify some of the manufacturing problems he has run into!

Now... don't you think Edelbrock, Trick Flow or any other major manufacturer knows how to make these things to print and fit correctly? One would hope so but, there are still problems that occur from "vehicle to vehicle". Any "experienced" performance shop will always check and verify the fitment of every part they work with. Well, maybe not at TTP... My mistake for assuming things were done like that over there.

Flame all you want Matt... Your inability to do a proper installation on the first "go-around" with this car is the root cause for problems by your own admission. You said you didn't check a thing and just bolted it all together. You couldn't tell me anything about the valvetrain geometry or preload we I called. Instead of just rectifying the problem, all you can do is spend time in here passing blame for your lack of experience.

Now... you just stated you can just "bolt in" an LG (or anyone elses) kit without checking anything? Well then, if you do this, you have no way to know if it's on the money or not, do you? Now then, is it that you only check what YOU sell or what YOU want to work best?? There's lies a problem then!

This was just another typical "tiny" problem with performance parts that could have been easily resolved, very neatly and quickly, had the proper "detail" work been done upfront at TTP. We could have just spoken about the issue and got it fixed... However, it wasn't done this way and now you have to look for a scapegoat. No problem. I'll take the heat. I've seen places with this type of business ethic come and go over the past thirty years. They don't last long...

Sorry Matt, but no one should be charging premium prices for mediocre workmanship. Time to change your pricing or your methods...

Ed

 

Wow....

Ed is long worded as normal here.

All I have to say is that if you are looking for a "custom" cam and an exact pushrod length on a setup that has non adjustable rockers... you don't understand how the world works.... let alone what the rocker and valve height are on different heads due to milling, valve jobs etc.... This is going to change the PR length...

Ed, I send a PR length checker along on a PR order.... and give instructions on how to check the length if need be.... sometimes the car is down longer but it prevents things like this happening.

And for everyone else... Ed might come off on a bad foot to you, but in reality this IS how the world works... you can't trust that a kit is perfect or the parts bolt right up, you need to check and verify this, in the end it's what makes a engine assembler and a engline builder.

Bret

 

ED sent him the heads with valvesprings INSTALLED and presumably with the right installed height.

One would hope he knew how much the heads were milled, valve job and what the base circle/lobe profile of the cam is. Pushrod length is determined from those factors and rocker/lifter type used.

If he just sent a cam then that would of course be different. He sent an ENTIRE PACKAGE.

Other vendors have sent out THOUSANDS of READY TO BOLT IN packages and they install without a hitch.

Chris

 

I don't think you're getting it. In manufacturing there are going to be production tolerances for each component. This can lead to tolerance stacking. Basically what happens is for a given component it may have a small or insignificant tolerance, at least you would think, but when combined with several components it can "add up". So maybe on paper it should work out but in reality it doesn't. This can't be determined until all the parts are actually put together. Its something I deal with on a daily basis and something I have to keep a very close eye on. Not until the components are put together do we start seeing where problems may occur and we have to compensate accordingly.

Its our policy here to check EVERYTHING, ESPECIALLY if we didn't build it ourselves. Its to insure that incidents like these don't happen and if there is a problem we catch it right away. Not only that, we also head off any potential to get blamed for any errors. Cause, that always sucks.

TTP is "passing the buck", at least thats what it seems. I feel for ED as this is the exact same thing that is happening to us. We're being blamed for the shortcomings and inexperience of an OEM engineering group we're working with.

Frank

 

Exactly.

I am not trying to "pass the buck" along here. I 100% admitted I did not check the valvetrain geometry and the customer was told the same. As the customer agrees with me he did not want to pay extra labor in this case but ended up doing so. When i sell a package or any other shop sells a package it should bolt in. Simple.

Ed, let's not talk about laziness. Every single part you've sent to this customer has been late to arrive. I have heard so many times "matt the part will be here tomorrow ed told me". This was about 4 different times that parts have supposedly shipped.. Including the first camshaft install where you didn't even send keepers. Yes, you corrected your mistake but that was after holding up shipping on everything else for days. Unfortunately I listened to Brad when he said everything is coming in and his car sat for 2 days taking up my space and Brad's time. Same deal happened with the heads we were told they shipped on a Monday, and they didnt even ship until the following Monday. I didn't trust the items to ship this time so I pushed Brad back until I had the parts in my shop.

Ed I think you are missing half the story here. Brad brought me a sheet of paper with a timing table, and asked me to put that in his car. I told him of course I would that is what he wanted. I never asked this person for the timing table. Brad wanted it in his car, so I said did it.

Face it Ed, you are attacking me for poor installs and improper tuning... Normally I would tell you "people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones"... But you arent even in the "house" considering you haven't installed or tuned any components in your own personal car, let alone a customer's car.

Oh, and thank you for proving my point perfectly. You just stated that if Ed did the installation correctly, he would know what pushrod length to use. But as we just learned Ed does not perform installations.

That is a joke in itself. This cam lumps and idles just as our Equalizer setups. The two cams are VERY much alike in idle characteristics. This cam also has surge under 1500rpms, ours surges in the 1000-1200rpm and then goes away. So don't try to tell me Ed's setup is street and mine is all out race.

You haven't even heard or drove our cam yet, so how can you prove that statement?

 

I think this thread has run its course. As I see it its now turn into a peeing match.

As I see it, there were some installation issues and now the issue of who is responsible for verifying things like pushrod lenth, etc... My personal opion is the person bolting on parts is responsible for that. Others may disagree, but until the part is actually on the car, the rest is simply guesswork.

As for tuning... I don't know what the valve events are. but a 220/225 shouldn't be difficult to tune at all, and shouldn't have tons of surge. I would check the tune if this were an ongoing issue.

As has been stated, the owner is satisfied with the results. And I agree this thread has run its course.