Darton East 427 block went Kaboom!!!*$*$*$
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Originally Posted by nassau joe
again, the smart asses show up. as i said and ill say it again, if i enlist the services of a professional and pay professional money, as he did both for the heads to be freshened up at cartek and the block and work accordingly at darton east, why in the hell would anyone think that they coulnt assemble the motor and be fine with the items as they were supplied? He was told that the small amount of water was not to worry about until after he heat cycled the thing. he did have the correct head gaskets as they were furnished by cartek. as for too many hands in the pot, lets see, he used cartek for the heads and darton east for block work. wow, thats a bunch isnt it! i sure hope that some of you have cars that run as good as your mouth!
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Originally Posted by 1QuickT-A
I agree with most of this.. IF the sleeves were installed incorrectly and he "didn't" get what he paid for then its not his fault reguardless if he cranked the engine or not...
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#63
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If Darton told him the leak was ok, then that's there own fault. I'll give you that. As far as us smart asses, most of us are posting constructive criticsm that your buddy or you can't seem to comprehend. If you two knew who was at fault from the get go, then why even post? It seems to me like you can't be wrong?
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Originally Posted by 1QuickT-A
I agree with most of this.. IF the sleeves were installed incorrectly and he "didn't" get what he paid for then its not his fault reguardless if he cranked the engine or not...
Here's the direct info straight from Darton International's Website, in their LS1 installation manual PDF:
Page 15, #5:
"All sleeves are warrantied against manufacturing defects for 1 year from date of sale. Damage as the result of engine failure is not covered, (Darton warranty at www.dartonsleeves.com) nor is any consequence of such damage weather or not caused by sleeves"
At most they are responsible for fixing the block/sleeve setup. The rest is not their responsibility. That's how I interpret their warranty, if I'm not entirely correct or totally off base please give me your insight. I'm just trying to help make sense of all of this. Sure, they could opt to replace those things for you. However, you'd be very hard pressed to make them replace them for you with legal institution simply based on their info posted in their warranty.
I feel that in the perfect world, assuming everything besides the block machining was done correctly, that they should fix the whole thing but unfortunately the industry doesn't work that way
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Originally Posted by madpwr1
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I know it's impossible to cover all the bases on every project that's why we have to learn from our experiences. It makes us better educated consumers/hobbyists.
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Originally Posted by CANNIBAL
Here's the direct info straight from Darton International's Website, in their LS1 installation manual PDF:
Page 15, #5:
"All sleeves are warrantied against manufacturing defects for 1 year from date of sale. Damage as the result of engine failure is not covered, (Darton warranty at www.dartonsleeves.com) nor is any consequence of such damage weather or not caused by sleeves"
At most they are responsible for fixing the block/sleeve setup. The rest is not their responsibility. That's how I interpret their warranty, if I'm not entirely correct or totally off base please give me your insight. I'm just trying to help make sense of all of this. Sure, they could opt to replace those things for you. However, you'd be very hard pressed to make them replace them for you with legal institution simply based on their info posted in their warranty.
Page 15, #5:
"All sleeves are warrantied against manufacturing defects for 1 year from date of sale. Damage as the result of engine failure is not covered, (Darton warranty at www.dartonsleeves.com) nor is any consequence of such damage weather or not caused by sleeves"
At most they are responsible for fixing the block/sleeve setup. The rest is not their responsibility. That's how I interpret their warranty, if I'm not entirely correct or totally off base please give me your insight. I'm just trying to help make sense of all of this. Sure, they could opt to replace those things for you. However, you'd be very hard pressed to make them replace them for you with legal institution simply based on their info posted in their warranty.
But, in this case... The engine supposedly blew up DUE to the fact that something with the block/sleeves was not done corectly So, I think they are at fault but only if the block/sleeves were the actual cause of the engine damage.
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Originally Posted by DavidNJ
Here's my question: if water was leaking between the head and the block, how did you know it wasn't it the oil?
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Originally Posted by CANNIBAL
1Quick-TA, what you said in your first paragraph I also interpreted. It's the last portion of their warranty that I was thinking about,
"nor is any consequence of such damage weather or not caused by sleeves."
How do you interpret that?
"nor is any consequence of such damage weather or not caused by sleeves."
How do you interpret that?
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Originally Posted by CANNIBAL
You wouldn't unless you had it tested for coolant or unless it was visible orange-ish when he did his multiple oil changes from break-in to dyno.
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Originally Posted by CANNIBAL
You wouldn't unless you had it tested for coolant or unless it was visible orange-ish when he did his multiple oil changes from break-in to dyno.
Again, I have called all the best tuners, Lingenfelter, MTI, Thunderacing, Cartek, and Steve even said so, that these sleeves shouldn't have been sticking out this far, though Darton East told me the opposite. I'll call Steve Monday. I don't expect Darton East to pay for everything, I've spent $15,000, so what's another $2500, right?
David
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Originally Posted by ScreaminDemon
There was never water in the oil. We ran the engine for 30 minutes then changed the oil, put about 2 hours on it and changed it again. Then I drove it to work that week to put some miles on it, around 160, changed it again that weekend and trailered it to Thunderacing.
Again, I have called all the best tuners, Lingenfelter, MTI, Thunderacing, Cartek, and Steve even said so, that these sleeves shouldn't have been sticking out this far, though Darton East told me the opposite. I'll call Steve Monday. I don't expect Darton East to pay for everything, I've spent $15,000, so what's another $2500, right?
David
Again, I have called all the best tuners, Lingenfelter, MTI, Thunderacing, Cartek, and Steve even said so, that these sleeves shouldn't have been sticking out this far, though Darton East told me the opposite. I'll call Steve Monday. I don't expect Darton East to pay for everything, I've spent $15,000, so what's another $2500, right?
David
Keep us up to date with what comes about. I would personally have Darton ship your block to Steve and you'll be very well off. He's a great guy to deal with and you can sleep comfortably at night knowing he did the machining/install.
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Originally Posted by VINCE
If you put oil in your car and it leaks out and then for no apparent reason it stops leaking will you go dyno your car w/out investigating where the oil was coming from and why?
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Originally Posted by CANNIBAL
I think his intentions were that the heat cycling would seal the slight leak. Apparently, according to a few posts in here, that heat cycling w/copper headgaskets can help w/sealing.
Most of the time we dont even put water in a new engine until after it has been heat cycled a few times. We normally crank them up without water, let them get to 200-220 degrees or so and then shut off and let cool down. Everyone has different ways of doing it tho..
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We normally crank them up without water, let them get to 200-220 degrees or so and then shut off and let cool down.
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Just my three cents,
As I understand it.
Guy invests lots of money in new high performance engine. Guy has professionals take care of many aspects of the engine’s build. Guy then assembles it with the help of a friend (note, this is oversight). It’s been a while since the car ran and for what he has paid out he figures everything will work.
Puts in some coolant. Notices a leak. Paranoia takes over and he calls the company that sold him one of the parts to discuss the leak. It’s not clear what was said over the phone but I gather that from his previous experience with copper gaskets and heat cycling (etc) coupled with their assurance of good work makes guy think everything will be alright.
So guy cranks it. Eventually leak vanishes. Everyone is happy. Successive oil changes do not raise any red flags. Car is driven lightly and broken in.
At the dyno engine kills itself.
Upon disassembly all suspected parts are examined none found to be out of form. All except the block, which apparently to this consumer has no set value for sleeve protrusion. Different manufactures and shops give different values for this measurement. The shop that sold him the block stands behind their .005 as measured after the blown engine. Amazingly the inventor of the questionable item comes on the forum and makes it clear that the correct value is a flat 0.
So the shop wasn’t even aware of the correct value. To me this instantly exposes their ignorance. At best if I call a shop and ask them why their tolerances are different from other manufactures they will explain to me why (well when its an expensive part, at the very least fob me off with technical jargon).
The way I see it I am not sure what else this poor guy could have done. He had professional work done. Sure some of you say that you would have stopped when the leak was noticed and pulled it all apart again. But I probably wouldn’t have… why?
Because I spent a ton of money and I expect what I pay for.
Because my car hasnt run for X months and I am eager
Because I have worked hard for a while and want to see a result
Because I have worked hard and don’t want to do more work
Because a shop made it seem like the leak would go away
Because an old wives tale talks about copper gaskets leaking and fixing themselves
Because my fear of incalculable engine failure is silenced by the above, because I called them…. What else should I have done that I should NEVER HAVE HAD TO DO (in my mind for what I spent).
See if I were him and had taken apart the engine I would have yelled at the shop forever.
To repair the block.
To cover the shipment of the block.
To cover my labor at standard industry rates (Pulling and disassembling an engine). (why? Cause if not they are doing it. Cause I’m losing time off work to this.. they should pay that also)
To throw more money at me for being angry.
I wish manufactures stood behind their products. The way CANNIBAL sees it .. it doesn’t even matter if the product works at all. Just write a fancy warranty and disclaimer. Hell, in that case a product is ONLY marketing so long as no one can prove bad intent.
Short version? If the block is found to be faulty, the shop pays for everything and gets it done double time.
Okay now seriously, I exaggerate some points, and If you can notice which ones, then I have made my point because sadly this is probably not how it will end.
-chris
As I understand it.
Guy invests lots of money in new high performance engine. Guy has professionals take care of many aspects of the engine’s build. Guy then assembles it with the help of a friend (note, this is oversight). It’s been a while since the car ran and for what he has paid out he figures everything will work.
Puts in some coolant. Notices a leak. Paranoia takes over and he calls the company that sold him one of the parts to discuss the leak. It’s not clear what was said over the phone but I gather that from his previous experience with copper gaskets and heat cycling (etc) coupled with their assurance of good work makes guy think everything will be alright.
So guy cranks it. Eventually leak vanishes. Everyone is happy. Successive oil changes do not raise any red flags. Car is driven lightly and broken in.
At the dyno engine kills itself.
Upon disassembly all suspected parts are examined none found to be out of form. All except the block, which apparently to this consumer has no set value for sleeve protrusion. Different manufactures and shops give different values for this measurement. The shop that sold him the block stands behind their .005 as measured after the blown engine. Amazingly the inventor of the questionable item comes on the forum and makes it clear that the correct value is a flat 0.
So the shop wasn’t even aware of the correct value. To me this instantly exposes their ignorance. At best if I call a shop and ask them why their tolerances are different from other manufactures they will explain to me why (well when its an expensive part, at the very least fob me off with technical jargon).
The way I see it I am not sure what else this poor guy could have done. He had professional work done. Sure some of you say that you would have stopped when the leak was noticed and pulled it all apart again. But I probably wouldn’t have… why?
Because I spent a ton of money and I expect what I pay for.
Because my car hasnt run for X months and I am eager
Because I have worked hard for a while and want to see a result
Because I have worked hard and don’t want to do more work
Because a shop made it seem like the leak would go away
Because an old wives tale talks about copper gaskets leaking and fixing themselves
Because my fear of incalculable engine failure is silenced by the above, because I called them…. What else should I have done that I should NEVER HAVE HAD TO DO (in my mind for what I spent).
See if I were him and had taken apart the engine I would have yelled at the shop forever.
To repair the block.
To cover the shipment of the block.
To cover my labor at standard industry rates (Pulling and disassembling an engine). (why? Cause if not they are doing it. Cause I’m losing time off work to this.. they should pay that also)
To throw more money at me for being angry.
I wish manufactures stood behind their products. The way CANNIBAL sees it .. it doesn’t even matter if the product works at all. Just write a fancy warranty and disclaimer. Hell, in that case a product is ONLY marketing so long as no one can prove bad intent.
Short version? If the block is found to be faulty, the shop pays for everything and gets it done double time.
Okay now seriously, I exaggerate some points, and If you can notice which ones, then I have made my point because sadly this is probably not how it will end.
-chris