1QuickT-A

iTrader: (12)

I agree with most of this.. IF the sleeves were installed incorrectly and he "didn't" get what he paid for then its not his fault reguardless if he cranked the engine or not...

madpwr1

iTrader: (3)

... he paid for it to be done right, they told him the initial leak was ok ... if a shop i paid money to tells me it's ok, guess what i'm goin to do, fire that thing up... and now it's my fault cause the motor blew up cause i trusted what the shop i paid good money to told me and trusted their work??????

Beast96Z

iTrader: (21)

If Darton told him the leak was ok, then that's there own fault. I'll give you that. As far as us smart asses, most of us are posting constructive criticsm that your buddy or you can't seem to comprehend. If you two knew who was at fault from the get go, then why even post? It seems to me like you can't be wrong?

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

I agree with the block integrity comment. If ERL said that it was ok then I too would feel that they are at fault for a faulty block. ERL (Darton) however is NOT responsible for the rest of the damage. Their warranty pertains only to the sleeves/block setup and machining and they cover only that per their warranty. It's the same type of warranty nearly 99.9% of the aftermarket automotive industry uses.

Here's the direct info straight from Darton International's Website, in their LS1 installation manual PDF:
Page 15, #5:

"All sleeves are warrantied against manufacturing defects for 1 year from date of sale. Damage as the result of engine failure is not covered, (Darton warranty at www.dartonsleeves.com) nor is any consequence of such damage weather or not caused by sleeves"

At most they are responsible for fixing the block/sleeve setup. The rest is not their responsibility. That's how I interpret their warranty, if I'm not entirely correct or totally off base please give me your insight. I'm just trying to help make sense of all of this. Sure, they could opt to replace those things for you. However, you'd be very hard pressed to make them replace them for you with legal institution simply based on their info posted in their warranty.

I feel that in the perfect world, assuming everything besides the block machining was done correctly, that they should fix the whole thing but unfortunately the industry doesn't work that way





Unfortunately, this happens all too often with automotive entities. It's not fair, I whole heartedly agree. However, in this industry, unless you have disposable income, it is totally imperative that exhaustive research and question asking be done far prior to any final work is done. If both parties expectations are known, then both sides know what to expect from each other.

I know it's impossible to cover all the bases on every project that's why we have to learn from our experiences. It makes us better educated consumers/hobbyists.

1QuickT-A

iTrader: (12)

I think you might be a little bit off base.. But, it could just be my way of thinking. This is what I gather from that info If the engine blows up and causes some damage to the sleeves then their warranty will not cover the sleeves being damaged.

But, in this case... The engine supposedly blew up DUE to the fact that something with the block/sleeves was not done corectly So, I think they are at fault but only if the block/sleeves were the actual cause of the engine damage.

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

1Quick-TA, what you said in your first paragraph I also interpreted. It's the last portion of their warranty that I was thinking about,

"nor is any consequence of such damage weather or not caused by sleeves."

How do you interpret that?

DavidNJ

Here's my question: if water was leaking between the head and the block, how did you know it wasn't it the oil?

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

You wouldn't unless you had it tested for coolant or unless it was visible orange-ish when he did his multiple oil changes from break-in to dyno.

1QuickT-A

iTrader: (12)

I interpret that the same way you do.. But, that was not in your other post..

1QuickT-A

iTrader: (12)

If he cant tell the difference between "milky" oil and good oil then he doesnt need to be putting any kind of engine together.. But, I'm pretty sure he would have noticed water in the oil.. I hope so anyways..

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

Which post, man?

Thanks.

ScreaminDemon

There was never water in the oil. We ran the engine for 30 minutes then changed the oil, put about 2 hours on it and changed it again. Then I drove it to work that week to put some miles on it, around 160, changed it again that weekend and trailered it to Thunderacing.

Again, I have called all the best tuners, Lingenfelter, MTI, Thunderacing, Cartek, and Steve even said so, that these sleeves shouldn't have been sticking out this far, though Darton East told me the opposite. I'll call Steve Monday. I don't expect Darton East to pay for everything, I've spent $15,000, so what's another $2500, right?

David

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

It's been established finally that they were indeed sticking out too far. I hope you get good restitution.

Keep us up to date with what comes about. I would personally have Darton ship your block to Steve and you'll be very well off. He's a great guy to deal with and you can sleep comfortably at night knowing he did the machining/install.

1QuickT-A

iTrader: (12)

LOL I guess it was and my tard *** didnt see it! my bad..

1QuickT-A

iTrader: (12)

um... direct port nitrous kit, suspension, a few car payments, etc etc..

VINCE

iTrader: (1)

If you put oil in your car and it leaks out and then for no apparent reason it stops leaking will you go dyno your car w/out investigating where the oil was coming from and why?

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

I think his intentions were that the heat cycling would seal the slight leak. Apparently, according to a few posts in here, that heat cycling w/copper headgaskets can help w/sealing.

1QuickT-A

iTrader: (12)

And normally if there is a "slight" leak you can crank it up and go through a heat cycle and then re-torque the head bolts/studs. Let it cool completely and start over.

Most of the time we dont even put water in a new engine until after it has been heat cycled a few times. We normally crank them up without water, let them get to 200-220 degrees or so and then shut off and let cool down. Everyone has different ways of doing it tho..

SUPRYZE

How do you know its at 200° when the gauge that reads water temperature has no water to read off of?

militant_x

iTrader: (1)

Just my three cents,

As I understand it.

Guy invests lots of money in new high performance engine. Guy has professionals take care of many aspects of the engine’s build. Guy then assembles it with the help of a friend (note, this is oversight). It’s been a while since the car ran and for what he has paid out he figures everything will work.

Puts in some coolant. Notices a leak. Paranoia takes over and he calls the company that sold him one of the parts to discuss the leak. It’s not clear what was said over the phone but I gather that from his previous experience with copper gaskets and heat cycling (etc) coupled with their assurance of good work makes guy think everything will be alright.

So guy cranks it. Eventually leak vanishes. Everyone is happy. Successive oil changes do not raise any red flags. Car is driven lightly and broken in.

At the dyno engine kills itself.

Upon disassembly all suspected parts are examined none found to be out of form. All except the block, which apparently to this consumer has no set value for sleeve protrusion. Different manufactures and shops give different values for this measurement. The shop that sold him the block stands behind their .005 as measured after the blown engine. Amazingly the inventor of the questionable item comes on the forum and makes it clear that the correct value is a flat 0.

So the shop wasn’t even aware of the correct value. To me this instantly exposes their ignorance. At best if I call a shop and ask them why their tolerances are different from other manufactures they will explain to me why (well when its an expensive part, at the very least fob me off with technical jargon).

The way I see it I am not sure what else this poor guy could have done. He had professional work done. Sure some of you say that you would have stopped when the leak was noticed and pulled it all apart again. But I probably wouldn’t have… why?

Because I spent a ton of money and I expect what I pay for.
Because my car hasnt run for X months and I am eager
Because I have worked hard for a while and want to see a result
Because I have worked hard and don’t want to do more work
Because a shop made it seem like the leak would go away
Because an old wives tale talks about copper gaskets leaking and fixing themselves
Because my fear of incalculable engine failure is silenced by the above, because I called them…. What else should I have done that I should NEVER HAVE HAD TO DO (in my mind for what I spent).

See if I were him and had taken apart the engine I would have yelled at the shop forever.

To repair the block.
To cover the shipment of the block.
To cover my labor at standard industry rates (Pulling and disassembling an engine). (why? Cause if not they are doing it. Cause I’m losing time off work to this.. they should pay that also)
To throw more money at me for being angry.

I wish manufactures stood behind their products. The way CANNIBAL sees it .. it doesn’t even matter if the product works at all. Just write a fancy warranty and disclaimer. Hell, in that case a product is ONLY marketing so long as no one can prove bad intent.

Short version? If the block is found to be faulty, the shop pays for everything and gets it done double time.

Okay now seriously, I exaggerate some points, and If you can notice which ones, then I have made my point because sadly this is probably not how it will end.

-chris