Darton East 427 block went Kaboom!!!*$*$*$
07-31-2005, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SUPRYZE
How do you know its at 200° when the gauge that reads water temperature has no water to read off of?
07-31-2005, 02:55 AM
#83
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Originally Posted by militant_x
Just my three cents,
As I understand it.
Guy invests lots of money in new high performance engine. Guy has professionals take care of many aspects of the engine’s build. Guy then assembles it with the help of a friend (note, this is oversight). It’s been a while since the car ran and for what he has paid out he figures everything will work.
Puts in some coolant. Notices a leak. Paranoia takes over and he calls the company that sold him one of the parts to discuss the leak. It’s not clear what was said over the phone but I gather that from his previous experience with copper gaskets and heat cycling (etc) coupled with their assurance of good work makes guy think everything will be alright.
So guy cranks it. Eventually leak vanishes. Everyone is happy. Successive oil changes do not raise any red flags. Car is driven lightly and broken in.
At the dyno engine kills itself.
Upon disassembly all suspected parts are examined none found to be out of form. All except the block, which apparently to this consumer has no set value for sleeve protrusion. Different manufactures and shops give different values for this measurement. The shop that sold him the block stands behind their .005 as measured after the blown engine. Amazingly the inventor of the questionable item comes on the forum and makes it clear that the correct value is a flat 0.
So the shop wasn’t even aware of the correct value. To me this instantly exposes their ignorance. At best if I call a shop and ask them why their tolerances are different from other manufactures they will explain to me why (well when its an expensive part, at the very least fob me off with technical jargon).
The way I see it I am not sure what else this poor guy could have done. He had professional work done. Sure some of you say that you would have stopped when the leak was noticed and pulled it all apart again. But I probably wouldn’t have… why?
Because I spent a ton of money and I expect what I pay for.
Because my car hasnt run for X months and I am eager
Because I have worked hard for a while and want to see a result
Because I have worked hard and don’t want to do more work
Because a shop made it seem like the leak would go away
Because an old wives tale talks about copper gaskets leaking and fixing themselves
Because my fear of incalculable engine failure is silenced by the above, because I called them…. What else should I have done that I should NEVER HAVE HAD TO DO (in my mind for what I spent).
See if I were him and had taken apart the engine I would have yelled at the shop forever.
To repair the block.
To cover the shipment of the block.
To cover my labor at standard industry rates (Pulling and disassembling an engine). (why? Cause if not they are doing it. Cause I’m losing time off work to this.. they should pay that also)
To throw more money at me for being angry.
I wish manufactures stood behind their products. The way CANNIBAL sees it .. it doesn’t even matter if the product works at all. Just write a fancy warranty and disclaimer. Hell, in that case a product is ONLY marketing so long as no one can prove bad intent.
Short version? If the block is found to be faulty, the shop pays for everything and gets it done double time.
Okay now seriously, I exaggerate some points, and If you can notice which ones, then I have made my point because sadly this is probably not how it will end.
-chris
As I understand it.
Guy invests lots of money in new high performance engine. Guy has professionals take care of many aspects of the engine’s build. Guy then assembles it with the help of a friend (note, this is oversight). It’s been a while since the car ran and for what he has paid out he figures everything will work.
Puts in some coolant. Notices a leak. Paranoia takes over and he calls the company that sold him one of the parts to discuss the leak. It’s not clear what was said over the phone but I gather that from his previous experience with copper gaskets and heat cycling (etc) coupled with their assurance of good work makes guy think everything will be alright.
So guy cranks it. Eventually leak vanishes. Everyone is happy. Successive oil changes do not raise any red flags. Car is driven lightly and broken in.
At the dyno engine kills itself.
Upon disassembly all suspected parts are examined none found to be out of form. All except the block, which apparently to this consumer has no set value for sleeve protrusion. Different manufactures and shops give different values for this measurement. The shop that sold him the block stands behind their .005 as measured after the blown engine. Amazingly the inventor of the questionable item comes on the forum and makes it clear that the correct value is a flat 0.
So the shop wasn’t even aware of the correct value. To me this instantly exposes their ignorance. At best if I call a shop and ask them why their tolerances are different from other manufactures they will explain to me why (well when its an expensive part, at the very least fob me off with technical jargon).
The way I see it I am not sure what else this poor guy could have done. He had professional work done. Sure some of you say that you would have stopped when the leak was noticed and pulled it all apart again. But I probably wouldn’t have… why?
Because I spent a ton of money and I expect what I pay for.
Because my car hasnt run for X months and I am eager
Because I have worked hard for a while and want to see a result
Because I have worked hard and don’t want to do more work
Because a shop made it seem like the leak would go away
Because an old wives tale talks about copper gaskets leaking and fixing themselves
Because my fear of incalculable engine failure is silenced by the above, because I called them…. What else should I have done that I should NEVER HAVE HAD TO DO (in my mind for what I spent).
See if I were him and had taken apart the engine I would have yelled at the shop forever.
To repair the block.
To cover the shipment of the block.
To cover my labor at standard industry rates (Pulling and disassembling an engine). (why? Cause if not they are doing it. Cause I’m losing time off work to this.. they should pay that also)
To throw more money at me for being angry.
I wish manufactures stood behind their products. The way CANNIBAL sees it .. it doesn’t even matter if the product works at all. Just write a fancy warranty and disclaimer. Hell, in that case a product is ONLY marketing so long as no one can prove bad intent.
Short version? If the block is found to be faulty, the shop pays for everything and gets it done double time.
Okay now seriously, I exaggerate some points, and If you can notice which ones, then I have made my point because sadly this is probably not how it will end.
-chris
07-31-2005, 08:18 AM
#84
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How does a leak big enough to hydra lock a running motor just happen? And how does water in the cylinder spin a main bearing without water in the oil?
This ordeal is the reason that I decided to have a pro assemble my motor. I have assembled many small block chevys but these gen III motors seem to be a little more sensitive to tolerances.
This ordeal is the reason that I decided to have a pro assemble my motor. I have assembled many small block chevys but these gen III motors seem to be a little more sensitive to tolerances.
07-31-2005, 08:30 AM
#85
Originally Posted by militant_x
The way CANNIBAL sees it .. it doesn’t even matter if the product works at all. Just write a fancy warranty and disclaimer. Hell, in that case a product is ONLY marketing so long as no one can prove bad intent.
Here's K&N's Air Filter warranty:
"EXTENT OF WARRANTY:
Any defective K&N Air Filter properly returned to K&N will be replaced. K&N will not be responsible for any other expenses incurred by the customer under the terms of this warranty, nor shall it be responsible for any damages either consequential, special, contingent, or otherwise; or expenses or injury arising directly or indirectly from the use of the K&N Air Filter. Any K&N Air Filter returned to K&N must be sent at customers' expense along with proof of purchase. K&N reserves the right to determine whether the terms of the warranty, set out above, have been properly complied with. In the event that the terms are not complied with, K&N shall be under no obligation to honor this warranty."
Sure, one could argue these warranties and fight them. But, I think it makes for a hard argument when a consumer buys the product with this type of info is made availabe.
I agree with all your points and wish they'd work out that way. It'd make the hobby much more fun, IMO.
07-31-2005, 10:14 AM
#86
yeah I understand.
Legal responsibility and moral obligation seem to clash sometimes.
I understand why warranties are what they are and honestly I cant see a way to write them differently. Which is why its a shame. Consumers want protection and corporations need protection. However a company should never let a rock solid warranty prevent them from making a good product. (I am not saying this is what happened... just in general)
-chris
Legal responsibility and moral obligation seem to clash sometimes.
I understand why warranties are what they are and honestly I cant see a way to write them differently. Which is why its a shame. Consumers want protection and corporations need protection. However a company should never let a rock solid warranty prevent them from making a good product. (I am not saying this is what happened... just in general)
-chris
07-31-2005, 12:28 PM
#88
Chris, you also have to look at what we had to work with from the guys first post. It wasn't until Steeve came in on the 4th or 5th page that things became more understandable. If all the info you posted in your post would have been avalible in the first post, we wouldn't be on the 9th page of this. As far as warranties go, I would write the same one myself. In a world of sue happy people trying to get a buck for nothing, you have to cover yourself. Then it can be up to you to look at certain situations on a one by one basis to see if you need to fix them. In this case, it looks as if Darton East installed the sleeves just like there Honda sleeves, which was incorrect.
07-31-2005, 07:31 PM
#89
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Originally Posted by APeteSS
Make up your mind, which was it? I think you did this one to yourself.
Last edited by ScreaminDemon; 07-31-2005 at 08:11 PM.
07-31-2005, 08:38 PM
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Darton East has done their "Autopsy" on my engine, trying to recreate what might have happened. They concluded that I did have the right Cometic gasket, the heads were fine, and the block was just as they machined it, with the sleeves .005 out. I think that this itself was the factor in the leak, as all the other tuners have told me so. Darton East is saying that one of my head stud holes has stripped out and that is what caused the leak, this doesn't sound likely to me, as all studs were torqed to 70ft/pds. How can just one decide to come out without being forced out by say, trying to compress water in the cylinder because of the height of the sleeve?
As for a warranty stating no responsibility for "engine failure", that is way to broad a term to able to assign fault. But this is an admitted design in the machining, which they don't seem to know is incorrect.
I am letting them build the engine this time, at what ever that will cost me. I still don't know if it will be correct though, since their stats aren't right. Lingenfelter told me they are decking the sleeves flush now, but Darton says you don't want it flush because the aluminum block will expand higher than the sleeve. I told Darton to deck the sleeves at .002 out. I hope something will be right.......
As for a warranty stating no responsibility for "engine failure", that is way to broad a term to able to assign fault. But this is an admitted design in the machining, which they don't seem to know is incorrect.
I am letting them build the engine this time, at what ever that will cost me. I still don't know if it will be correct though, since their stats aren't right. Lingenfelter told me they are decking the sleeves flush now, but Darton says you don't want it flush because the aluminum block will expand higher than the sleeve. I told Darton to deck the sleeves at .002 out. I hope something will be right.......
07-31-2005, 08:58 PM
#93
Originally Posted by NYC FRANK
Militant X is my verbal hero !!! Canniball you sound like a dick.
I was only trying to delineate facts and give insight to how the aftermarket automotive industry works w/warranty's, etc. It helps with forming and meeting expectations which then allows one to deal with various circumstances in a more confident manner.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I apologize that I came off that way ( as a dick in your opinion).
I was only trying to help. I am the one who pm'd Steve @ RE to come into this thread to help the guy out. Steve got Screamin' some info he needed to confirm his questions definatively.
Last edited by CANNIBAL; 07-31-2005 at 09:04 PM.
07-31-2005, 09:00 PM
#94
Originally Posted by ScreaminDemon
I am letting them build the engine this time, at what ever that will cost me. I still don't know if it will be correct though, since their stats aren't right. Lingenfelter told me they are decking the sleeves flush now, but Darton says you don't want it flush because the aluminum block will expand higher than the sleeve. I told Darton to deck the sleeves at .002 out. I hope something will be right.......
I'd try to get them to finish it the way Steve @ RE said it should be done. He's the "horse's mouth" so to speak with these setups. I'm confident if it is done the way he says you'll have zero issues.
How are they gonna repair the stripped bolt hole?
07-31-2005, 11:41 PM
#95
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Aren't most warranties for anything as self-protective as the ones in the aftermarket industry? Ever read a MicroSoft warranty?
The auto aftermarket is a lot different than your average product in this area. Installations are usually done by non professionals, and it is essentially always someone else's fault when something goes wrong. Nobody wants to admit error - either the shop or the "poor schmuck". Read the stories on here about guys who miss a shift on nitrous, wipe out a T56, pull the aftermarket stuff and go back to the dealer for a new trans saying "I dunno. I was just driving to church and it quit working". Then tell me again why I should believe anybody who tells me they did everyting right and it was not their fault - it must be the part makers fault.
I am not taking sides with anyone here. There has been much heated debate here, very polarizing. Guys trying to bring some reason to the issue are demonized for not seeing clearly how this poor fellow was ripped off. You all need to take a step back and look at the big picture, walk in the other guys shoes, or whatever your favorite homily is. I have seen a lot of carnage in my day that simply could not have happened the way the "victim" claimed. I have also seen plenty of cases where a mfg would not stand up and take responsibility for shoddy workmanship/product/whatever. The door swings both ways, and it is not always swinging the way someone says it is.
When our instruments first went into steel mills, they always screwed up on third shift. No sign of any problems, but third shift would say the keypad didn't work or the numbers returned were wrong or etc. I almost went nuts trying to find the problems. The instrument always worked correctly if I was around. The problems eventually went away by themselves, and it became apparent that the union guys were afraid that this new instrument was going to replace somebody so simply lied. Then there were the keypads that really did fail, because they had a screwdriver driven through them. Point is, people are human and if you go around assuming everyone is being truthful when they have trouble, you will not stay in business.
Once again people, there are bad guys on both sides of the fence.
The auto aftermarket is a lot different than your average product in this area. Installations are usually done by non professionals, and it is essentially always someone else's fault when something goes wrong. Nobody wants to admit error - either the shop or the "poor schmuck". Read the stories on here about guys who miss a shift on nitrous, wipe out a T56, pull the aftermarket stuff and go back to the dealer for a new trans saying "I dunno. I was just driving to church and it quit working". Then tell me again why I should believe anybody who tells me they did everyting right and it was not their fault - it must be the part makers fault.
I am not taking sides with anyone here. There has been much heated debate here, very polarizing. Guys trying to bring some reason to the issue are demonized for not seeing clearly how this poor fellow was ripped off. You all need to take a step back and look at the big picture, walk in the other guys shoes, or whatever your favorite homily is. I have seen a lot of carnage in my day that simply could not have happened the way the "victim" claimed. I have also seen plenty of cases where a mfg would not stand up and take responsibility for shoddy workmanship/product/whatever. The door swings both ways, and it is not always swinging the way someone says it is.
When our instruments first went into steel mills, they always screwed up on third shift. No sign of any problems, but third shift would say the keypad didn't work or the numbers returned were wrong or etc. I almost went nuts trying to find the problems. The instrument always worked correctly if I was around. The problems eventually went away by themselves, and it became apparent that the union guys were afraid that this new instrument was going to replace somebody so simply lied. Then there were the keypads that really did fail, because they had a screwdriver driven through them. Point is, people are human and if you go around assuming everyone is being truthful when they have trouble, you will not stay in business.
Once again people, there are bad guys on both sides of the fence.
08-01-2005, 12:57 AM
#96
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IMHO, you should call up a lawyer and ask his opinion. From what I've heared, you can almost never compleatly seperate yourself from liability. I'm not a lawyer, nor am I one of the common 'internet lawyers' that prowl around giving bad advice, but unless you have the money to spend, i would try and get as much as you can. you should probably take your engine to an uninvolved party and see what they think caused the problems. Obviously darton east has something to gain by telling you it isnt their fault
08-01-2005, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by CANNIBAL
Screamin,
I'd try to get them to finish it the way Steve @ RE said it should be done. He's the "horse's mouth" so to speak with these setups. I'm confident if it is done the way he says you'll have zero issues.
How are they gonna repair the stripped bolt hole?
I'd try to get them to finish it the way Steve @ RE said it should be done. He's the "horse's mouth" so to speak with these setups. I'm confident if it is done the way he says you'll have zero issues.
How are they gonna repair the stripped bolt hole?
Critter, the specs that Darton East uses, which are listed on their website for their sleeves, are wrong. There is no way a head can seat with the sleeves .005 out, though Darton told me it was fine. So where should the fault lay? All the tuners disagree with Darton East, and I have called them all.
Steve, I have questions with the Evans fluid. How can water be corrosive to the iron sleeves, any more than if it was an iron block? I was turned off by it's costs also, $75 for the 3 gals needed, and pricey precleaner. And what if you got a busted hose on the road? You would have to call wrecker! What about using distilled water and antifreeze?
08-01-2005, 12:28 PM
#99
Evans coolant, etc. First, the Evans coolant is required with wet sleeves to prevent cavitation damage to the sleeve exterior. If you use water antifreeze mix, you will end up with pin holes through the sleeves in time. I don't know what the time factor is but on racing engines this happens fairly quickly. The Evans eliminates cavitation problems, and will take much higher temperatures than water antifreeze without boiling.
Regarding blowing hoses. The Evans filled system operates at zero to seven pounds of pressure. Evans sells seven pound caps for use with their coolant. Obviously, there is much less chance of a hose blowing off at seven pounds than at twenty pounds.
I spoke with Jeff at Darton East this morning about your engine. Jeff says there were two stripped head studs side by side in your block. This certainly didn't help with head sealing - they would not have sealed anyway with the sleeves protruding. They will machine the block flat and repair the stripped bolt holes with threaded inserts.
There was also a problem with the reluctor wheel hitting the side of #8 Lunati piston. I don't know why there is still this problem. I called Lunati about this problem last year. They said they would fix all in stock on the shelf and all future pistons would be correctly machined.
Make sure you pay attention to retorquing the heads after running. I highly recommend checking the torque again after about a month of driving just to be on the safe side. This is a function of aluminum blocks and heads, not the sleeves.
Steve
Regarding blowing hoses. The Evans filled system operates at zero to seven pounds of pressure. Evans sells seven pound caps for use with their coolant. Obviously, there is much less chance of a hose blowing off at seven pounds than at twenty pounds.
I spoke with Jeff at Darton East this morning about your engine. Jeff says there were two stripped head studs side by side in your block. This certainly didn't help with head sealing - they would not have sealed anyway with the sleeves protruding. They will machine the block flat and repair the stripped bolt holes with threaded inserts.
There was also a problem with the reluctor wheel hitting the side of #8 Lunati piston. I don't know why there is still this problem. I called Lunati about this problem last year. They said they would fix all in stock on the shelf and all future pistons would be correctly machined.
Make sure you pay attention to retorquing the heads after running. I highly recommend checking the torque again after about a month of driving just to be on the safe side. This is a function of aluminum blocks and heads, not the sleeves.
Steve
Originally Posted by ScreaminDemon
Cannibal, I'm going to call Steve this morning, if the sleeves are suppose to be flush, Darton East really needs to know!!! About the stripped bolt hole, they are going to see if ARP makes a slightly bigger stud for it. If not, they are going to use a GM insert.
Critter, the specs that Darton East uses, which are listed on their website for their sleeves, are wrong. There is no way a head can seat with the sleeves .005 out, though Darton told me it was fine. So where should the fault lay? All the tuners disagree with Darton East, and I have called them all.
Steve, I have questions with the Evans fluid. How can water be corrosive to the iron sleeves, any more than if it was an iron block? I was turned off by it's costs also, $75 for the 3 gals needed, and pricey precleaner. And what if you got a busted hose on the road? You would have to call wrecker! What about using distilled water and antifreeze?
Critter, the specs that Darton East uses, which are listed on their website for their sleeves, are wrong. There is no way a head can seat with the sleeves .005 out, though Darton told me it was fine. So where should the fault lay? All the tuners disagree with Darton East, and I have called them all.
Steve, I have questions with the Evans fluid. How can water be corrosive to the iron sleeves, any more than if it was an iron block? I was turned off by it's costs also, $75 for the 3 gals needed, and pricey precleaner. And what if you got a busted hose on the road? You would have to call wrecker! What about using distilled water and antifreeze?
__________________
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
Steve Demirjian
Race Engine Development
Oceanside, Ca.
760-630-0450
web: www.raceenginedevelopment.com/
e-mail: race-engine-development@***.net
08-01-2005, 07:37 PM
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Steve, after speaking with Jeff at Darton East, it doesn't sound like they are going to stand behind their assembly with the sleeves decked at 0, so I don't see the point in paying them to do the assembly. It sure took a lot of phone calls to finally get them to do it, when it seems this should be an industry standard. I feel like they are new to this and I am their lab rat! If I had known better, I would of had my sleeves done on the west coast.
Jay Callis at Lunati would like to talk to you concerning the skirts on the pistons, 1-662-890-6309. He stated all the pistons have an inset for the reluctor wheel, and if it was hitting I would of heard it, and it wouldn't of lasted 160 miles. Besides, I paid Darton East to balance my assembly, and take of any clearancing issues, atleast so I thought. I did have some scaring on the skirt though, I'll take that to Jay when I get it back from Darton.
Steve, I guess I will be getting the Evans coolant, I don't want any more problems! I want to thank you for all your help, and I hope this doesn't have any reflection on you or your sleeves, as I know your process for the machine work is not fully followed by others. Hell, I was under the impression that Darton invented this wet sleeve, and that I was in good hands...
David
Jay Callis at Lunati would like to talk to you concerning the skirts on the pistons, 1-662-890-6309. He stated all the pistons have an inset for the reluctor wheel, and if it was hitting I would of heard it, and it wouldn't of lasted 160 miles. Besides, I paid Darton East to balance my assembly, and take of any clearancing issues, atleast so I thought. I did have some scaring on the skirt though, I'll take that to Jay when I get it back from Darton.
Steve, I guess I will be getting the Evans coolant, I don't want any more problems! I want to thank you for all your help, and I hope this doesn't have any reflection on you or your sleeves, as I know your process for the machine work is not fully followed by others. Hell, I was under the impression that Darton invented this wet sleeve, and that I was in good hands...
David