NO COMPRESSION....wtf?????
TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,055
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From: Hartsdale, NY
Good! So you need to order the correct lenght pushrods and that shoudl solve the problem.
When I did mine, I just told Thunder Racing how much the heads had been shaved and they were able to calculate the correct lenght and send me a set by FEDEX the same day....
Man - I hope this engine works OK....!!!!!
When I did mine, I just told Thunder Racing how much the heads had been shaved and they were able to calculate the correct lenght and send me a set by FEDEX the same day....
Man - I hope this engine works OK....!!!!!
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Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Live Oak, FL - in the woods where the creatures lurk.
Originally Posted by ArcticZ28
I don't think he needs to hang up his tools necessarily. This is all a learning experience. I did something along the same lines when I did my first major cam install and I installed it with the timing off. Long story short, broke off a valve and embedded it into the piston. Stock engine was done for it. I can't tell you how many people told me to hang up my tools, that I couldn't do it. But, I learned a hell of a lot from disassembling/reassembling that engine so many times. And what do you know, I taught myself more, and I even swapped a 6.0 into my car without any prior experience/knowledge of doing so. All the things I have done to my car have taught me and gotten me to the point where installs like this are trivial, thanks to what I've learned. If things never messed up, I would have gone on being ignorant of what could have and did happen to my engine. Sure it might end up costing you a lot of money, but you gotta pay to play. I didn't buy this car to take it to a mechanic every time I think something is wrong. I bought it to learn and learn from my mistakes, which is what these experiences do best.
Not everyone has a crackerjack mechanic to learn from. We learn by doing.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 554
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From: Ontario Calif.
Originally Posted by robertbartsch
Polter:
....that is interesting to know..... my cam sensor went bad twice. The last time it was really hard to start but eventiually it would turn over and run...
If the compression stroke and the exhaust stroke are reversed would'nt the spark timing be wrong causing the engine to not run?
So does anyone know if the cam is now 180 out or aligned correctly? Have we confirmed that the heads have been shaved and therefor, the pushrods are too long?
....that is interesting to know..... my cam sensor went bad twice. The last time it was really hard to start but eventiually it would turn over and run...
If the compression stroke and the exhaust stroke are reversed would'nt the spark timing be wrong causing the engine to not run?
So does anyone know if the cam is now 180 out or aligned correctly? Have we confirmed that the heads have been shaved and therefor, the pushrods are too long?
TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,055
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From: Hartsdale, NY
Ok - I agree - everyone learns by doing... Sometimes if you don't have hands-on help from someone you can trust it is easy to make costly mistakes that could be avoided, however.
I have to admit, the move about swaping the cam 180 degrees had me worried. If you thought this issue out most wrench twisters with experience would have known the valves are not seated on the compression stroke and would have assumed the "new" ?? pushrods are too long.
The web page that discribes the cam and head swap is very useful for novices or even people who have done dozens of swaps but have never worked on a Gen 3.
I have to admit, the move about swaping the cam 180 degrees had me worried. If you thought this issue out most wrench twisters with experience would have known the valves are not seated on the compression stroke and would have assumed the "new" ?? pushrods are too long.
The web page that discribes the cam and head swap is very useful for novices or even people who have done dozens of swaps but have never worked on a Gen 3.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,131
Likes: 4
From: Franklin MASS
robertbartsch, why are you so quick to tell me to hang up my tools and leave it to the professionals?? Although, I appreciate your input on this matter, you dont know me, and know my mechanical ability. Just because YOU pay somone to do all of your work on your car, doesnt mean that I HAVE to, nor do I have the money too.....but I do thank you for your help.....
that being said, yes the pushrods are stock length, they are TR 7.4 chromoly pushrods. These heads have never been milled. Basily what I did was replace the block in my car, with the same heads (and a different cam) same rockers, same push rods, etc.
One of my friends seems to think that its an electrical problem for some reason. I am getting fuel, spark and air.....just no compression. He said that the crank position sensor may be different from 00 to 02, but I really dont see how that has anything to do with it.....being that all the computer and wiring are 00????? I did go throught it yesterday, checked all the fuses, and wiring etc, and it still just spun over, with out compression. If infact that it is a head gasket....the motor would still make some compression, and I would hear it pissing out of the head gaskets........
So at this point, I am ready to just tear it all down again, and start over......this has got me so frustrated.......
And gwj.....THANK YOU......
that being said, yes the pushrods are stock length, they are TR 7.4 chromoly pushrods. These heads have never been milled. Basily what I did was replace the block in my car, with the same heads (and a different cam) same rockers, same push rods, etc.
One of my friends seems to think that its an electrical problem for some reason. I am getting fuel, spark and air.....just no compression. He said that the crank position sensor may be different from 00 to 02, but I really dont see how that has anything to do with it.....being that all the computer and wiring are 00????? I did go throught it yesterday, checked all the fuses, and wiring etc, and it still just spun over, with out compression. If infact that it is a head gasket....the motor would still make some compression, and I would hear it pissing out of the head gaskets........
So at this point, I am ready to just tear it all down again, and start over......this has got me so frustrated.......
And gwj.....THANK YOU......
I think you using the term No Compression is confusing a lot of people here. Have you checked the "compression" with a compression tester. Are you just trying to say you are getting no combustion as in it's not firing? Sensors have nothing to do with compression. Only piston movement and valve events control that.
robertbartsch -
I feel that HASTINGSRJ is right to be a little bent about your initial tone. Its a dick move to criticize someones mechanical ability like that when you dont know them. The fact that you were completely incorrect dosn't help your carse either.
How many degrees does the cam move if you turn the crank over 360º? The cam has moved 180º, yet the pistons are back to the same place they started. Nothing collides. If you were to have the crank out 180º or the cam out by 90º then you might have problems.
I feel that HASTINGSRJ is right to be a little bent about your initial tone. Its a dick move to criticize someones mechanical ability like that when you dont know them. The fact that you were completely incorrect dosn't help your carse either.
How many degrees does the cam move if you turn the crank over 360º? The cam has moved 180º, yet the pistons are back to the same place they started. Nothing collides. If you were to have the crank out 180º or the cam out by 90º then you might have problems.
what i dont get is how can u put the cam in wrong if 1 and 6 are at TDC??? the heads are off, so the valves arent even an issue at that point.... I know HASTINGS (Rob) and he is mechanically inclined. Besides, isnt the purpose of these forums to help and aid in doing it yourself?? at least thats what i though 
I guess I am just alittle confused about what it going on. Have you used a compression guage to measure cylinder compression? Compression is strictly mechanical like 2xLS1 stated already. First thing to do would be to remove the rocker arms and rotate the motor. There should be compression and barely be able to rotate. If thats not the case then the vavles aren't seating all the way or the head gasket isn't sealing. Can you hear where the air is moving when rotating the crank? If everything checks out then you may need a crank position relearn done. It is a common thing to occur when swapping to a different crank. It can be done with hp tunner or a tech2.
I agree that forums like this are here to help the do it yourself home mechanics. Well that and to learn about all the different parts, combinations and sellers to build what you want. I agree that some trial and error is necessary, and experience is what inspires confidence. It is great to learn from others on here about what not to do, and hopefully can also contribute information to get things done right with all the how to's. Just keep plugin away and you will get it going.
I agree that forums like this are here to help the do it yourself home mechanics. Well that and to learn about all the different parts, combinations and sellers to build what you want. I agree that some trial and error is necessary, and experience is what inspires confidence. It is great to learn from others on here about what not to do, and hopefully can also contribute information to get things done right with all the how to's. Just keep plugin away and you will get it going.
Sup bro... Definitely do a compression test and find out for sure if there's a difference in the CPS from 00 to 02 before. And most of all, don't let an internet troll discourage you. I know you and I know you'll get it figured out.
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Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Hartsdale, NY
Just for your info, I do all my own mechanical work. Although I have a desk job now, I used to be a pro wrench twister.... auto transmissions to be exact...
You have to admit, so far this job has not gone too well. I just assumed from all the issues you have hd so far that you had never done any thing like this before...
Sorry...! ...just trying to give some good advice..... ...so keep going and think things out carefully before proceeding - if you have a kowledgable freind friend - use him.
I highly suspect your compression issue is mechanical - removing the rockers and push rods and rotating the engine should confirm this ASAP.
You have to admit, so far this job has not gone too well. I just assumed from all the issues you have hd so far that you had never done any thing like this before...
Sorry...! ...just trying to give some good advice..... ...so keep going and think things out carefully before proceeding - if you have a kowledgable freind friend - use him.
I highly suspect your compression issue is mechanical - removing the rockers and push rods and rotating the engine should confirm this ASAP.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,131
Likes: 4
From: Franklin MASS
Well as of right now, since I have been traveling...I havent dont a compression test on it yet. I am still trying to get situated here in NC. I went with Comp Cams 850-16 OEM replacement lifters.
As soon as I find a place, I am going to start working on it again.
And I do thank you ALL for your input on this subject, thank you
Rob
As soon as I find a place, I am going to start working on it again.
And I do thank you ALL for your input on this subject, thank you
Rob
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,131
Likes: 4
From: Franklin MASS
Originally Posted by 2xLS1
I think you using the term No Compression is confusing a lot of people here. Have you checked the "compression" with a compression tester. Are you just trying to say you are getting no combustion as in it's not firing? Sensors have nothing to do with compression. Only piston movement and valve events control that.
I will see if someone out here has an HP tuner and can do a crank re-learn for me....
I'm confused here. It's not firing? or it doesn't have compression? or both, which is it? You won't get combustion without compression and spark. You say above your getting spark right?, so plaese clear this up for me.
Also, on the whole 180* out thing, can someone tell me how that could be ok? Am I mis-interpreting that. If your dot to dot, it does not matter whether your on compression stroke or intake stroke, ok fine, is that what your calling 180* off?. But if your not dot to dot, really 180* off ie. cam gear dot on bottom and crank dot on bottom, how is this ok? A cam sensor will not correct your valves meeting your pistons. I think there was some confusion on this and just want to know what people meant to say.
Thanks,
Dan
Also, on the whole 180* out thing, can someone tell me how that could be ok? Am I mis-interpreting that. If your dot to dot, it does not matter whether your on compression stroke or intake stroke, ok fine, is that what your calling 180* off?. But if your not dot to dot, really 180* off ie. cam gear dot on bottom and crank dot on bottom, how is this ok? A cam sensor will not correct your valves meeting your pistons. I think there was some confusion on this and just want to know what people meant to say.
Thanks,
Dan
Originally Posted by DanZ28
I'm confused here. It's not firing? or it doesn't have compression? or both, which is it? You won't get combustion without compression and spark. You say above your getting spark right?, so plaese clear this up for me.
Also, on the whole 180* out thing, can someone tell me how that could be ok? Am I mis-interpreting that. If your dot to dot, it does not matter whether your on compression stroke or intake stroke, ok fine, is that what your calling 180* off?. But if your not dot to dot, really 180* off ie. cam gear dot on bottom and crank dot on bottom, how is this ok? A cam sensor will not correct your valves meeting your pistons. I think there was some confusion on this and just want to know what people meant to say.
Thanks,
Dan
Also, on the whole 180* out thing, can someone tell me how that could be ok? Am I mis-interpreting that. If your dot to dot, it does not matter whether your on compression stroke or intake stroke, ok fine, is that what your calling 180* off?. But if your not dot to dot, really 180* off ie. cam gear dot on bottom and crank dot on bottom, how is this ok? A cam sensor will not correct your valves meeting your pistons. I think there was some confusion on this and just want to know what people meant to say.
Thanks,
Dan
Originally Posted by robertbartsch
Obviously, you should have checked valve clearences using the modeling clay method or a dial indicator.... You also should have checked compression - by hand cranking with a breaker bar and crank bolt socket - after you installed the heads but before you installed the push rods and lifters....
Hand cranking the engine using a breaker bar after the push rods and rockers are installed also is a good idea because it prevents you from bending valves and breaking pistons before you crank the car over with the electric starter.... ...that is, you would probably know if you screwed up the installation of the valve train/cam components by installing the cam 180 degrees out of phase...
...Sometimes you really need to think things out thouroghly, before you make a move and do alot of expensive damage..... it would have also helped if you had a buddy who knows something about Gen 3's to help you work on the car....
At least look at the web page that shows how to install heads and cam in a Gen 3...
...frankly, I think it is too late now, however .... you will probably have to order another engine.... get a stock long block (a short block with stock heads installed - e.g., a complete engine) this time and have a professional mechanic install it....
Hang up you tools, man ...Chalk it up to experience and admit that mechanical hot rodding is NOT your forte'
You might sell the ported heads to someone else who could replace the bent valves and have the new valves re-seated at an engine shop....
We have seen many here on the board who have installed cams out of phase..... if the engine is cranked with the electric starter BIG-TIME damage to the valves and pistons is always the result....
Hand cranking the engine using a breaker bar after the push rods and rockers are installed also is a good idea because it prevents you from bending valves and breaking pistons before you crank the car over with the electric starter.... ...that is, you would probably know if you screwed up the installation of the valve train/cam components by installing the cam 180 degrees out of phase...
...Sometimes you really need to think things out thouroghly, before you make a move and do alot of expensive damage..... it would have also helped if you had a buddy who knows something about Gen 3's to help you work on the car....
At least look at the web page that shows how to install heads and cam in a Gen 3...
...frankly, I think it is too late now, however .... you will probably have to order another engine.... get a stock long block (a short block with stock heads installed - e.g., a complete engine) this time and have a professional mechanic install it....
Hang up you tools, man ...Chalk it up to experience and admit that mechanical hot rodding is NOT your forte'
You might sell the ported heads to someone else who could replace the bent valves and have the new valves re-seated at an engine shop....
We have seen many here on the board who have installed cams out of phase..... if the engine is cranked with the electric starter BIG-TIME damage to the valves and pistons is always the result....
So did you ever do an actual compression test??
Did you pull a plug wire off the spark plug while cranking the car to see if it is actually firing or not?
Did you check the fuel pressure at the rail to make sure that it is actually getting fuel to the rails?
Have you checked the injectors to make sure that they are dispersing fuel into the engine?
What length pushrods did you use & how much milling was done to the heads??
Did you pull a plug wire off the spark plug while cranking the car to see if it is actually firing or not?
Did you check the fuel pressure at the rail to make sure that it is actually getting fuel to the rails?
Have you checked the injectors to make sure that they are dispersing fuel into the engine?
What length pushrods did you use & how much milling was done to the heads??