Copper flakes in oil drain pan!
Copper flakes in oil drain pan! I threw a P0343 code and I am guessing that my cam walked backwards. I started to disassemble the front of the engine to see if the cam bolts cam loose and in the process I drained my oil. How many copper flakes in the oil is a rebuild sign? I have never had any flakes in the oil before. There were about 6-8 1mm- copper flakes. There were sitting in the oil drain pan after I drained the oil. There was NOTHING on the magnet on the oil plug. If I am able to tighten up the cam bolts (hoping they are just loose) will The damage being done to the cam bearing decay to zero?
Heres the deal. I threw a DTC P0343 which is High Output from the Cam position sensor. I've been told by many that this usually means that the cam has walked backwards because the three cam bolts have become loose. I am guessing that the cam moving backwards is causiing the bearing flakes. If I correct the problem by tightening up the cam bolts, the bearing wear should go away and I should not have to rebuild (as long as the flakes stop showin up in the oil pan). ?.?.?
Right?
Right?
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you can easily see that bearing fit has been compromised. there is a thin layer of dissimilar material (lead or other soft material with a copper layer inbetween) with a steel backing. when this bearing layer is damaged, it affects a precise fit between the bearing surface and the camshaft. when this happens, accelerated wear will result in complete disentigration of the bearing, and consequently, of your camshaft.
imagine the bearing as a circular "donut" and the camshaft rotating inside the hole. as long as the fit is precise, the camshaft will only rotate with very little translation, or horizontal/vertical movement. when the donut hole is damaged, the camshaft bangs up against the sides of the bearing, overwhelming the hydrodynamic thin-film effect of the oil, and wears directly against the bearing.
not good.
imagine the bearing as a circular "donut" and the camshaft rotating inside the hole. as long as the fit is precise, the camshaft will only rotate with very little translation, or horizontal/vertical movement. when the donut hole is damaged, the camshaft bangs up against the sides of the bearing, overwhelming the hydrodynamic thin-film effect of the oil, and wears directly against the bearing.
not good.
So, if I tighten the bolts and put the engine back together. Change the oil and never see copper flakes in the oil again it is still going to fall apart? Bearing material has to go somewhere right?
TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,055
Likes: 1
From: Hartsdale, NY
I have blown two cam shaft position sensors and had the same SES code. The interval was one year (8K miles)
I ripped open the front of the engine last month to see if the cam was loose. No deal - very tight - double roller was good too. No flakes in my oil either....
The GM dealer said the reluctor that the cam fits into at the back of the block might be the cause of multiple can sensor failures......
For now, I'm running it and hoping for the best....
If I were you, I would rip open the front to check the cam retainer bolts..... use locktight if you have not done so before....
Since you have copper in the oil, I would consider removing the cam to check for wear.... obviously, a big pain but it would confirm that it is either your cam bearings, or crankshaft bearings that are wearing away....
DId you save the oil filter..... saw it in half and check if there is a ton of copper inside....?
I ripped open the front of the engine last month to see if the cam was loose. No deal - very tight - double roller was good too. No flakes in my oil either....
The GM dealer said the reluctor that the cam fits into at the back of the block might be the cause of multiple can sensor failures......
For now, I'm running it and hoping for the best....
If I were you, I would rip open the front to check the cam retainer bolts..... use locktight if you have not done so before....
Since you have copper in the oil, I would consider removing the cam to check for wear.... obviously, a big pain but it would confirm that it is either your cam bearings, or crankshaft bearings that are wearing away....
DId you save the oil filter..... saw it in half and check if there is a ton of copper inside....?
lol some people wont listen
go ahead, tighten the bolts back up and put it back together, and then a few months down road we will see you back here posting a thread "oh noes my engine exploded!"
fix it now cheaply or fix it later for lots more time, money and hassle
go ahead, tighten the bolts back up and put it back together, and then a few months down road we will see you back here posting a thread "oh noes my engine exploded!"
fix it now cheaply or fix it later for lots more time, money and hassle
Sorry STEEL CHICKEN (post NO. 7). Its a big decision for some of us people that just dont have the time and money to mess things up. Ill stop bothering everyone. And steel chicken 
TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,055
Likes: 1
From: Hartsdale, NY
Steel Chicken:
So as long as you see copper flakes in the oil you would tear it down completely if it was your car?
I suppose that is good advice.... Pay me now or pay me later!
Instead, I suppose you could trade it in for a new LS2 and let the dealer deal with it...
One thing I would worry a bunch about is this. If there are a few copper flakes in the oil there must be a ton of flakes trapped in the oil filter.... WOW - that is really scarry!
So as long as you see copper flakes in the oil you would tear it down completely if it was your car?
I suppose that is good advice.... Pay me now or pay me later!
Instead, I suppose you could trade it in for a new LS2 and let the dealer deal with it...
One thing I would worry a bunch about is this. If there are a few copper flakes in the oil there must be a ton of flakes trapped in the oil filter.... WOW - that is really scarry!
Originally Posted by 99whitews6
Sorry STEEL CHICKEN (post NO. 7). Its a big decision for some of us people that just dont have the time and money to mess things up. Ill stop bothering everyone. And steel chicken
Cheaper? What do you think is cheaper? Pulling the cam out and inspecting it and the bearings for FREE ZERO DOLLARS
or waiting x amount of time and having a catastrophic engine failure and have to rebuild it?
Im sorry you can't understand that basic concept. And no, your not bothering me. It just irritates me when people ask questions, and then when they get answers they dont like, try asking the same question over and over again in slightly different ways.
Tear it apart and inspect the engine. If you dont know what to look for, find someone who does. Otherwise, you are risking a HUGE repair bill later. Get pissed off at me if you like, im trying to HELP you, you dumb bastard (i mean that as a funny)
Last edited by Steel Chicken; Sep 13, 2005 at 11:56 AM.
Originally Posted by robertbartsch
Steel Chicken:
So as long as you see copper flakes in the oil you would tear it down completely if it was your car?
I suppose that is good advice.... Pay me now or pay me later!
Instead, I suppose you could trade it in for a new LS2 and let the dealer deal with it...
One thing I would worry a bunch about is this. If there are a few copper flakes in the oil there must be a ton of flakes trapped in the oil filter.... WOW - that is really scarry!
So as long as you see copper flakes in the oil you would tear it down completely if it was your car?
I suppose that is good advice.... Pay me now or pay me later!
Instead, I suppose you could trade it in for a new LS2 and let the dealer deal with it...
One thing I would worry a bunch about is this. If there are a few copper flakes in the oil there must be a ton of flakes trapped in the oil filter.... WOW - that is really scarry!
robertbartsch - The rearmost cam journal has a groove cut into it. This groove is the reluctor. The cam does not interfect with a seperate reluctor wheel.
99whitews6 - I would pull the cam and see if you see any wear on the journal. You might not be able to get a good look at that rear bearing even with a mirror and flashlight, but its worth a shot. While if you do have some scratches in the rear cam bearing its not going to have uniform oil cushion between the metal, but its not going to be as bad a situation as if the cam bearing had spun due to oil starvation or some other pre existing problem.
99whitews6 - I would pull the cam and see if you see any wear on the journal. You might not be able to get a good look at that rear bearing even with a mirror and flashlight, but its worth a shot. While if you do have some scratches in the rear cam bearing its not going to have uniform oil cushion between the metal, but its not going to be as bad a situation as if the cam bearing had spun due to oil starvation or some other pre existing problem.
TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,055
Likes: 1
From: Hartsdale, NY
What is the approximate cost of a replacement long (short) block from a wrecked car VS. rebuilding you own motor if it has bad cam/crank bearings.....?????
I suppose you might be able to avoid some machining if the rings, heads and other hard parts are OK....
Sort of a toss up.... probably cheaper to go with a replacement but MUCH more risky.... in any event, a diffucult and costly decision.....
If it is a Vette, it probably has retained its value well so I would trade it in on an LS2. If it is an F-body, I would probably keep it and repair the original engine before it goes POW!
I suppose you might be able to avoid some machining if the rings, heads and other hard parts are OK....
Sort of a toss up.... probably cheaper to go with a replacement but MUCH more risky.... in any event, a diffucult and costly decision.....
If it is a Vette, it probably has retained its value well so I would trade it in on an LS2. If it is an F-body, I would probably keep it and repair the original engine before it goes POW!
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (10)
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From: Gainesville, Denton TX
You can get a good used stock shortblock for well under 1k, and a rebuilt one should be around that too.
Stop knocking Steel Chicken, his advice is very good, who cares how many posts he has? # of posts does not mean knowledge to everyone.
I had metal on my drain plug, a little after the powertour, then changed the oil again, and had lots more. motor went south the next day. the rollers on the lifters fell apart (still held in, just tore up all to hell) ate the camshaft up, and then there were a few other things that got messedup, most likely from metal floating around in the engine.
moral: see metal, inspect everything.
Stop knocking Steel Chicken, his advice is very good, who cares how many posts he has? # of posts does not mean knowledge to everyone.
I had metal on my drain plug, a little after the powertour, then changed the oil again, and had lots more. motor went south the next day. the rollers on the lifters fell apart (still held in, just tore up all to hell) ate the camshaft up, and then there were a few other things that got messedup, most likely from metal floating around in the engine.
moral: see metal, inspect everything.
TECH Veteran
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,055
Likes: 1
From: Hartsdale, NY
Brandon:
That blows; did your busted motor have mods - cam, heads, etc.? Were you using the stock lifters? I assume these were the cause right - or was it an after market cam whose scratchy lopes tore up the lifter rollers?
I'm mildly pissed about my cam sensor issue. If it is the cam reluctor "notched grove" that is now bad, I can safely assume that it has become this way as a result of a defective after market Comp cam. It has been in for 3 years now....
I have not noticed any metal shavings on my drain plug magnet or in the oil, however...
That blows; did your busted motor have mods - cam, heads, etc.? Were you using the stock lifters? I assume these were the cause right - or was it an after market cam whose scratchy lopes tore up the lifter rollers?
I'm mildly pissed about my cam sensor issue. If it is the cam reluctor "notched grove" that is now bad, I can safely assume that it has become this way as a result of a defective after market Comp cam. It has been in for 3 years now....
I have not noticed any metal shavings on my drain plug magnet or in the oil, however...