Road Racing Vs. Drag Racing Cam Profiles
11-26-2005, 07:58 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by 11 Bravo
I could be wrong, but isn't the Cup cam run in the C5R race motors?
11-26-2005, 08:12 PM
#23
Originally Posted by Z06er
Tech Experts:
IN your opinion, what differentiates the cam shaft profile between road vs drag racing cams. I am looking for a reliable racing camshaft profile for a stock bottom end LS6/66 cc AFR 205/LG LT header/stock LS6 manifold/ported TB/Rollmaster/ported oil pump/3.73 combo?
Key is straight line high torque curve in 2nd and 3rd gear with power available to pull out of the corners. I noticed there are number of killer combos out there like the LG GX cams, TREX, FM 13 and the like, but wonder if there are applicable on a road course. Winding the motor out to 7000 rpm is not likely on most courses with my MN12/3.73 combo as my car weighs about 3100 pounds. The longest straight away is no more than 2/3 mile with a corresponding decreasing radius corner which usually requires serious braking and a 4th to 2nd downshift to boot. In addition, run times are as long as 30 minutes with the motor winding throughout the power band from 2nd, 3rd, and 4th and then back down as needed. Oil starvation is reduced but not eliminated via the Z06 pan and a 3 qt accusump.
So with all this in mind, I am starting to think the road cam is a different animal than the typical drag racing profile.
Should I consider:
Going with the existing camshafts as descirbed above and:
1. Advancing the cam 2-3 degrees?
Or go with
2 Go with a lower lift shorter LSA ? (e.g. ASA)
or,
3. Reduce the split between intake and exhaust and tighten up the LSA?
I noticed there are posts related to a T1 cam as well as a TRAK camshaft. Are these viable candidates or?
If I sound like a neophite, well I am. I want to learn but not by buying and installing everything that sounds cool.
Any advice would be appreciated.
IN your opinion, what differentiates the cam shaft profile between road vs drag racing cams. I am looking for a reliable racing camshaft profile for a stock bottom end LS6/66 cc AFR 205/LG LT header/stock LS6 manifold/ported TB/Rollmaster/ported oil pump/3.73 combo?
Key is straight line high torque curve in 2nd and 3rd gear with power available to pull out of the corners. I noticed there are number of killer combos out there like the LG GX cams, TREX, FM 13 and the like, but wonder if there are applicable on a road course. Winding the motor out to 7000 rpm is not likely on most courses with my MN12/3.73 combo as my car weighs about 3100 pounds. The longest straight away is no more than 2/3 mile with a corresponding decreasing radius corner which usually requires serious braking and a 4th to 2nd downshift to boot. In addition, run times are as long as 30 minutes with the motor winding throughout the power band from 2nd, 3rd, and 4th and then back down as needed. Oil starvation is reduced but not eliminated via the Z06 pan and a 3 qt accusump.
So with all this in mind, I am starting to think the road cam is a different animal than the typical drag racing profile.
Should I consider:
Going with the existing camshafts as descirbed above and:
1. Advancing the cam 2-3 degrees?
Or go with
2 Go with a lower lift shorter LSA ? (e.g. ASA)
or,
3. Reduce the split between intake and exhaust and tighten up the LSA?
I noticed there are posts related to a T1 cam as well as a TRAK camshaft. Are these viable candidates or?
If I sound like a neophite, well I am. I want to learn but not by buying and installing everything that sounds cool.
Any advice would be appreciated.
I would recommend our torquer cam. You can gain 40 ft/lbs down low, flatten out your torque curve, and not loose anything up top. Actually increase 10hp. Heres a dyno on a stock LS6 CTS-V
It's basically a LS6 cam that we tightened up the lobe centers and advance 5 degrees.
11-26-2005, 08:58 PM
#25
Originally Posted by Z06er
Well, I found this thread. Fascinating. Sort of addresses many of my questions.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...ht=torque+cams
I believe the C5R has a Katech Proprietary grind to take into account the Kinsler Fuel injection, restrictor plates and track the car is running at. I'd bet the LeMans set up is different from the cam used at Road atlanta.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...ht=torque+cams
I believe the C5R has a Katech Proprietary grind to take into account the Kinsler Fuel injection, restrictor plates and track the car is running at. I'd bet the LeMans set up is different from the cam used at Road atlanta.
11-26-2005, 10:05 PM
#27
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I think a good combination would be a 243 casting milled some with a lunati 221@.05 w/.558 lift comp push rods and 918 springs, ti retainers make good power and torque, unless your are wanting to play in a bigger ball park
11-26-2005, 10:39 PM
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Great thread. I love the sponser participation. I like to autoX once in awhile, but do not compete for season points so I'm just building the car to be fun. A nice set of heads (62cc w/2.02" intakes) and an F14 running through 4.10s. I know I could have put the money in the suspension and tires and produced better lap times, but HP and torque always produces big smiles. The F13 likely would have been a better track cam than the F14, but I want the audible muscle car sound that the F14 is better at. Sounds kinda silly, but I'll spend most of my time at car shows, driving the windy mountain roads around my house and an occiasional autoX weekend and maybe a few trips down the 1320 for the record books.
All in all, you've got to love these cars (Ybody or Fbody) Take em out stock and you only need to work on your driving skills to be competetive. Throw a few grand in mods at them and they can get real fun and real fast.
All in all, you've got to love these cars (Ybody or Fbody) Take em out stock and you only need to work on your driving skills to be competetive. Throw a few grand in mods at them and they can get real fun and real fast.
11-27-2005, 04:27 AM
#30
I daily drive my car and road race about 1x month. I've done 4 NASA road race events with a TSP 233/239 .603/.600 112LSA cam, milled AFR 205's, LS6 intake, ported TB, 1 7/8" long tubes with dual 3" Xpipe, stock 23K mi bottom end with Katech rod bolts. T56/3:90 gears 2950lbs with driver and 440rwhp/385rwtq.
I compared overlayed graphs of a friends car with near identical setup (1/2 point more compression and he ran TEA S3 5.3 heads) who ran a 225/225 .589/.589" 112LSA cam as the main difference. He had about 35rwtq more than my setup from 2K-4K, 4-6K I was catching up, and only beyond 6600rpm did I catch him and only beat him by 3-5rwhp. His torque was always better (partially due to compression my 10:7:1 to his 11:2ish) with his car putting down 405rwtq.... Over winter I plan to swap over to a 228/228 .595/.595" 114LSA cam to get back some torque down low and all across the board... and not have to spin it as high. My redline is 7100 and I bump it every once in a while.
Have about 4 hrs of hard track driving and no engine related problems. The car feels great and tons of power. 2nd gear in low speed exit corners without throttle modulation will blaze the tires (285/30/18 MichPSCups). I always run 7 quarts when racing with the Fbody pan in my conversion. May do an Accusump next year if I run into oiling problems in 2006; however thus far I see no need for my setup.
I compared overlayed graphs of a friends car with near identical setup (1/2 point more compression and he ran TEA S3 5.3 heads) who ran a 225/225 .589/.589" 112LSA cam as the main difference. He had about 35rwtq more than my setup from 2K-4K, 4-6K I was catching up, and only beyond 6600rpm did I catch him and only beat him by 3-5rwhp. His torque was always better (partially due to compression my 10:7:1 to his 11:2ish) with his car putting down 405rwtq.... Over winter I plan to swap over to a 228/228 .595/.595" 114LSA cam to get back some torque down low and all across the board... and not have to spin it as high. My redline is 7100 and I bump it every once in a while.
Have about 4 hrs of hard track driving and no engine related problems. The car feels great and tons of power. 2nd gear in low speed exit corners without throttle modulation will blaze the tires (285/30/18 MichPSCups). I always run 7 quarts when racing with the Fbody pan in my conversion. May do an Accusump next year if I run into oiling problems in 2006; however thus far I see no need for my setup.
11-27-2005, 06:34 AM
#31
TECH Senior Member
Criterias for road race differ than drag by a mile.
As we promote on a regular basis, it is all about combo and the PURPOSE of that combo.
Road racing will see 3000>6500 rpm all day long.
So important lifts are .300, .350, .400 > .550
This is where mid lift heads come into play with velocity as its primary factor.
AFR 205's are a prime exemple.
Also very tight quench .027>.030 for maximum efficiency and fast burn.
Big cams with fast ramps are not needed as the power is more develloped by fuel burn efficiency and compression.
With higher compression, heat devellopped needs to be dissipated quicker so cooling plays a big effect for efficiency.
Now comes the cam:
From what I see around on the market to this day, I believe CRANE is the company to look at.
Variable lift lobes for trq production at mid lifts, yet with a rate gentle enough to sustain long abuse.
Also need to look at effective valvetrain moving mass. The lighter it is, the more efficient it is and the less harmonicaly unbalanced it is.
If i were to make such a combo myself using off the shelf parts, I would choose something like this:
AFR 205 casting bare, (Kateck hollow valves (2.00/1.55), 918's, titanium retainers, Comp shaft rockers, Comp p-rods)
Cometic gasket for a .027>.030 quench
Compression 11.5>12.0
Cam CRANE
DUR @ .004" 278*/ 286*
DUR @ .050" 216*/ 224*
LIFT .551/.551
OVERLAP 53*
LSA 115*
PR- 2200>6300
Or slightly bigger
DUR @ .004" 286*/ 286*
DUR @ .050" 224*/224*
LIFT .551/.551
OVERLAP 58*
LSA 114*
PR- 2600>6500
As we promote on a regular basis, it is all about combo and the PURPOSE of that combo.
Road racing will see 3000>6500 rpm all day long.
So important lifts are .300, .350, .400 > .550
This is where mid lift heads come into play with velocity as its primary factor.
AFR 205's are a prime exemple.
Also very tight quench .027>.030 for maximum efficiency and fast burn.
Big cams with fast ramps are not needed as the power is more develloped by fuel burn efficiency and compression.
With higher compression, heat devellopped needs to be dissipated quicker so cooling plays a big effect for efficiency.
Now comes the cam:
From what I see around on the market to this day, I believe CRANE is the company to look at.
Variable lift lobes for trq production at mid lifts, yet with a rate gentle enough to sustain long abuse.
Also need to look at effective valvetrain moving mass. The lighter it is, the more efficient it is and the less harmonicaly unbalanced it is.
If i were to make such a combo myself using off the shelf parts, I would choose something like this:
AFR 205 casting bare, (Kateck hollow valves (2.00/1.55), 918's, titanium retainers, Comp shaft rockers, Comp p-rods)
Cometic gasket for a .027>.030 quench
Compression 11.5>12.0
Cam CRANE
DUR @ .004" 278*/ 286*
DUR @ .050" 216*/ 224*
LIFT .551/.551
OVERLAP 53*
LSA 115*
PR- 2200>6300
Or slightly bigger
DUR @ .004" 286*/ 286*
DUR @ .050" 224*/224*
LIFT .551/.551
OVERLAP 58*
LSA 114*
PR- 2600>6500
Last edited by PREDATOR-Z; 11-27-2005 at 07:46 AM.
11-27-2005, 08:26 AM
#32
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Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
Criterias for road race differ than drag by a mile.
As we promote on a regular basis, it is all about combo and the PURPOSE of that combo.
Road racing will see 3000>6500 rpm all day long.
So important lifts are .300, .350, .400 > .550
This is where mid lift heads come into play with velocity as its primary factor.
AFR 205's are a prime exemple.
Also very tight quench .027>.030 for maximum efficiency and fast burn.
Big cams with fast ramps are not needed as the power is more develloped by fuel burn efficiency and compression.
With higher compression, heat devellopped needs to be dissipated quicker so cooling plays a big effect for efficiency.
Now comes the cam:
From what I see around on the market to this day, I believe CRANE is the company to look at.
Variable lift lobes for trq production at mid lifts, yet with a rate gentle enough to sustain long abuse.
Also need to look at effective valvetrain moving mass. The lighter it is, the more efficient it is and the less harmonicaly unbalanced it is.
If i were to make such a combo myself using off the shelf parts, I would choose something like this:
AFR 205 casting bare, (Kateck hollow valves (2.00/1.55), 918's, titanium retainers, Comp shaft rockers, Comp p-rods)
Cometic gasket for a .027>.030 quench
Compression 11.5>12.0
Cam CRANE
DUR @ .004" 278*/ 286*
DUR @ .050" 216*/ 224*
LIFT .551/.551
OVERLAP 53*
LSA 115*
PR- 2200>6300
Or slightly bigger
DUR @ .004" 286*/ 286*
DUR @ .050" 224*/224*
LIFT .551/.551
OVERLAP 58*
LSA 114*
PR- 2600>6500
As we promote on a regular basis, it is all about combo and the PURPOSE of that combo.
Road racing will see 3000>6500 rpm all day long.
So important lifts are .300, .350, .400 > .550
This is where mid lift heads come into play with velocity as its primary factor.
AFR 205's are a prime exemple.
Also very tight quench .027>.030 for maximum efficiency and fast burn.
Big cams with fast ramps are not needed as the power is more develloped by fuel burn efficiency and compression.
With higher compression, heat devellopped needs to be dissipated quicker so cooling plays a big effect for efficiency.
Now comes the cam:
From what I see around on the market to this day, I believe CRANE is the company to look at.
Variable lift lobes for trq production at mid lifts, yet with a rate gentle enough to sustain long abuse.
Also need to look at effective valvetrain moving mass. The lighter it is, the more efficient it is and the less harmonicaly unbalanced it is.
If i were to make such a combo myself using off the shelf parts, I would choose something like this:
AFR 205 casting bare, (Kateck hollow valves (2.00/1.55), 918's, titanium retainers, Comp shaft rockers, Comp p-rods)
Cometic gasket for a .027>.030 quench
Compression 11.5>12.0
Cam CRANE
DUR @ .004" 278*/ 286*
DUR @ .050" 216*/ 224*
LIFT .551/.551
OVERLAP 53*
LSA 115*
PR- 2200>6300
Or slightly bigger
DUR @ .004" 286*/ 286*
DUR @ .050" 224*/224*
LIFT .551/.551
OVERLAP 58*
LSA 114*
PR- 2600>6500
11-27-2005, 11:44 AM
#33
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Predator Z thanks for the post! If you ran 91 Octane pump gas, would you change the cam specs? Also do you see any merit in advancing the cam on this type of application?
11-27-2005, 12:35 PM
#34
TECH Senior Member
Originally Posted by Z06er
Predator Z thanks for the post! If you ran 91 Octane pump gas, would you change the cam specs? Also do you see any merit in advancing the cam on this type of application?
The tight quench will play a major role then as would the AFRs (they have double quench pads instead of one in LSx castings)
I would not run a gasket thicker than .040 compressed.
Advance or retarding depends on powerband needed/desired. If you run non adjustable chain then advance is prefered but if you can advance/retard at will via chain then 0* advance is my favourite (straight up)
You're welcome
11-27-2005, 09:12 PM
#35
!LS1 11 Second Club
This thread is excellent. I can't thank enough the thread starter and those who are participating.
True, the dirver mod is more important than anything, but cam selection for RR is so specific (and so overlooked in the aftermarket of peak performance gains) that RR guys have few selections to choose from in the aftermarket off-the shelf grinds.
As a Skip Barber grad, RR aficionado, and someone who will campaign an ls1 powered vehicle in future track events, I really place close attention to threads like these.
I had a peak HP LS1 setup as a daily driver. It would have been an awful RR car, as power was not available until 4000+rpm (cam selection), and the gearing would have been awful.
AFR's 205, with their good mid level numbers would be great. TEA Stage 1 5.7's would be great if winding out the engine too high isn't a priority.
JRP informed me of some great lobe profile information which proves beneficial towards valvetrain life (using specific lobe profiles to reduce spring/lifter wear, allowing for decent lift and duration numbers).
Formulating your own priorities out of the cam grind you want is quintissential (for all applications). This applies to us RR guys also. If off the shelf grinds don't meet our needs, then we must make our own (at the end it does not cost much more). It's just a matter of consulting the right people.
RR may be more about tires, brakes, suspension and driver, but a great cam to match the application is always important, and that's what threads like these are all about.
True, the dirver mod is more important than anything, but cam selection for RR is so specific (and so overlooked in the aftermarket of peak performance gains) that RR guys have few selections to choose from in the aftermarket off-the shelf grinds.
As a Skip Barber grad, RR aficionado, and someone who will campaign an ls1 powered vehicle in future track events, I really place close attention to threads like these.
I had a peak HP LS1 setup as a daily driver. It would have been an awful RR car, as power was not available until 4000+rpm (cam selection), and the gearing would have been awful.
AFR's 205, with their good mid level numbers would be great. TEA Stage 1 5.7's would be great if winding out the engine too high isn't a priority.
JRP informed me of some great lobe profile information which proves beneficial towards valvetrain life (using specific lobe profiles to reduce spring/lifter wear, allowing for decent lift and duration numbers).
Formulating your own priorities out of the cam grind you want is quintissential (for all applications). This applies to us RR guys also. If off the shelf grinds don't meet our needs, then we must make our own (at the end it does not cost much more). It's just a matter of consulting the right people.
RR may be more about tires, brakes, suspension and driver, but a great cam to match the application is always important, and that's what threads like these are all about.
11-27-2005, 10:40 PM
#36
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I am running TSPs Torquer (233/233 on a 112.) I also am still using a ported stock TB and an LS6 manifold. All for Torque purposes. And I am using a 402 LS2 short block.
But I have over 400 ftlbs of tq at the rear wheels at 3100 rpm up through 6400 where I have the rev limiter set. Yet I still make about 484 rwhp at 6000 rpm. Most of the drag race 402s I have seen make over 500 rwhp will not produce 400 ft lbs of torque til about 3500 rpm with FAST intakes and bigger cams. So combo of the LS6 intake and a smaller cam will help coming off of slower corners.
The other thing a cam designed for torque will do is give you a relatively smooth application of power so you don't have to drive around a harsh "on the cam" spot.
Also, I think some of the drag racers are assuming we run 3-5 hour races and that is generally not the case. Most sessions/races are 20-35 minutes since us amateurs don't have pit crews and speed rigs for refueling. Now there will be 3 or 4 sessions a day, but generally we are out there for 10-20 laps per race or session. But 10 laps on a 2 mile course is a bit more time that 1/4 mile at a time. <g>
Perry
But I have over 400 ftlbs of tq at the rear wheels at 3100 rpm up through 6400 where I have the rev limiter set. Yet I still make about 484 rwhp at 6000 rpm. Most of the drag race 402s I have seen make over 500 rwhp will not produce 400 ft lbs of torque til about 3500 rpm with FAST intakes and bigger cams. So combo of the LS6 intake and a smaller cam will help coming off of slower corners.
The other thing a cam designed for torque will do is give you a relatively smooth application of power so you don't have to drive around a harsh "on the cam" spot.
Also, I think some of the drag racers are assuming we run 3-5 hour races and that is generally not the case. Most sessions/races are 20-35 minutes since us amateurs don't have pit crews and speed rigs for refueling. Now there will be 3 or 4 sessions a day, but generally we are out there for 10-20 laps per race or session. But 10 laps on a 2 mile course is a bit more time that 1/4 mile at a time. <g>
Perry
11-27-2005, 10:51 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by Perry Kincy
I I also am still using a ported stock TB and an LS6 manifold. All for Torque purposes.
11-28-2005, 11:42 AM
#40
!LS1 11 Second Club
MTI doesn't feature the T1 on their website anymore, but they'll still grind you one.
Specs were 221/221 .55X/.55X 112 (something like that).
I had a C1 and liked the midrange power it had (222/222 .566/.566 112) and it was on XE style lobes if I recall.
Specs were 221/221 .55X/.55X 112 (something like that).
I had a C1 and liked the midrange power it had (222/222 .566/.566 112) and it was on XE style lobes if I recall.