SouthFL.02.SS

Patrick, your setup and my old setup make similar power. My old setup is making 480rwhp (confirmed on 3 different dynoes in 2 different states) using lazy Lunati lobes with .598 max lift. and plain ol' TEA 1.5's. The tq. curve woke up with the 90/90 and HVMC's (you have similar bolt ons).

Yes, I am trying to reaffirm an idea that I have in my head. The idea is that one can make good, usable power without going nuts on lift and lobe aggressiveness.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

Carlos, I wouldn't call the .598 lift Lunati lobes lazy, LOL. Now if you're looking for a 15-20 lb ft advantage over a 525 lift cam, consider this:

Choose a cam that gives you the same duration at .006" as the ASA cam, but has faster ramps. If you do that, instead of getting another 226/236 cam, you'd get more like a 232/242 cam (at .050"), but have the exact same overlap and duration a .006". Basically, the fast ramped cam would idle exactly like the ASA cam (since duration at .006" is more of what determines how a motor idles) and have the low speed characteristics of the ASA cam, but it would POUND it in overall power.

Or, you could simply run a 226/236 110LSA cam with faster ramps and enjoy smoother idle, better low-end torque, and more total power under the curve.

SouthFL.02.SS

Alright, alright my thick skull is giving way.

SouthFL.02.SS

Thanks Patrick.

SouthFL.02.SS

Oh, yeah, forgot to mention, they are somewhere closer to XE than XE-R if I recall. TSP started using faster ramps to address low end tq.- consistant with the logic you're preaching, and with industry trends.

I'm still weary about using them for sustained periods of time. Dead horse I guess. I've seen a couple of my friends' TRex setups bust dual springs (I know, TRex is another animal altogether). Could be valvetrain setup of course.

Custom grind may be the way to go for me.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

Bingo! Most pre-mature spring failure relates to improper setup of valvetrain. For example, lots of people run Comp 987s and PP Golds with the T-Rex cam, but how many of them are shimming the springs to within .050" of coil bind? Not many I bet. By shimming the springs, you lessen spring surge and extend the life of the springs. Again, proper setup is the key to making springs last in an endurance situation.

SouthFL.02.SS

987's would be horrible for a TRex, but since that was the dual spring of choice from TEA a couple years ago (along with their method of install height for 987's) on their budget heads, people ran them anyways despite the setup for .620ish lift claim. PP Gold duals are a much bette spring than 987's.
My friends used Crane Duals.

SouthFL.02.SS

TSP 231/237 @ .050
289/299 @ .006

A little lazy for the record .

DavidNJ

Shifting the power band higher is going to be primarily a function of dynamic compression. My 248 is 275 at the seat with a 107lsa and 104 icl. That is 61 deg ABDC. The GM Showroom Stoch cam has a 105 icl.

For the sake of reliability, I would also go with solid lifters if the car is primarily for track day use. They are not bad (my Boss 302, Lotus Élan, and current Supra TT had them), and don't have maintenance issues unless they break. (OK, the Élan and Supra have buckets not lifters).

Net, a real road racing/oval cam (other than a super speedway) will have small lsa and some advance. Dynamic compression will be fine. Just the overlap will kill the idle and the low end. When that is overcome, I believe the expression is 'coming on the cam'.

For a track day, tires and data acquisition will mean more. Until you have the car tuned to the track with great turn-in and mid-corner traction, the power is just a waste of time. Worse, it is actually embarrassing, since it raises people’s expectations.

Except for ensuring a steady supply of oil, keeping water temperatures down and oil temps consistently 20-30 deg higher, and cool air to the engine, I'd leave the engine alone. After that reliablity would be next (a rebuild with inspection, fresh valves, springs, retainers, locks, lifters, rockers, pistons, pins).

SouthFL.02.SS

Booooo!
I know you're speaking from experience.
Sure, internals should be way down the list of priorities. Just having fun thinking about what I can do with the next setup (and learning tons in the process thanks to you guys).

DavidNJ

Just think, instead of engine parts you can come to the track with different springs, roll bars and stocks. With the solid rear axle, you can use toe plates (with two tape measures) and a $175 camber gauge you can adjust alignment.

Your new best friends will be your scales and ride height gauge.

I've noticed you can get aftermarket k-frame, torque mounts, and axle lower arm mounts. However, not chassis control arm mounts, and limited upper arm options in the front. From experience, suspension arm angles in the rear affect bump steer and are critical in getting out of the turns under power. How do you adjust this on an f-body?

SouthFL.02.SS

Wow. I'm so far away from playing with toe-in/out, suspension geometry setup, etc. it's not even funny. I'm going to consult Sam Strano for a setup that won't need too much adjusting on a track by track basis.
All I know is just a bunch of tubular, rod ended stuff out back (LCA's, PHR, Tq, Arm, etc.) and some control arms up front on a stock K-member. Sway bar, spring and shock selection will be up to Sam.
I just want the thing to handle decently. Not going to compete with it.

SouthFL.02.SS

68/49

61/59

Just as an educational example, would the softer lobes of the higher lift cam be easier on valve springs than the aggressive exhaust lobe of the lower lift cam, given the durations we're looking at? The subtractions of .050 from .006 are bolded.

gnx7

iTrader: (28)

If you plan to do track days I would suggest at least thinking about some Katech rod bolts. PITA to install with engine in the car... but there is a reason they put them in ASA setups. Reliability under extreme abuse with stock parts.

I run in my LS1/RX-7 a 1st generation TSP 233/239 112LSA .600/.603" lift cam with '99 shortblock (7100rpm redline), Katech rods bolts, .024" milled AFR 205's (10:7:1 compression), LS6 intake, ported TB, long tubes, true 3" duals with Xpipe, Fidanza alum flywheel, 3:90's, and 285/30/18's all around (2950lbs with driver).

I have a VDO analog H20 temp guage and monitor it all the time. Track temps usually are around 220* (distilled water, Redline Water Wetter, RMI-25 additive) and when it is 100*+ out can climb to 240*. I have no ducting to my radiator yet and need to do some hood venting badly. However with only an '85 Vette radiator (in my RX-7/LS1) it works fine. I plan on an oil cooler and oil temp guage for 2006 also.

I like the big cam as I can put the power down in low speed corners (2nd gear) with pedal modulation. I normally shift around 6600rpm and if I need to pass a car I wind it up to 7,000... as I keep moving when they normally have to shift. I have 16 (20 minute each) very hard road race sessions on my combo thus far, daily drive the car with a heavy foot, and have had ZERO problems. I have about 12K miles on the combo in this form and about 10 passes at the strip also.

My ritual is to change my Redline Oil the day before a track event and then race and continue to use the same oil until the next race (normally 1 month later) and change it out the night before. I overfill with 7 quarts to stop potential oil pump pickup starvation as others have suggested with no problems. I also plop in some Ferodo DS3000 pads in my 13" AP's and drive to/from the track.

I know a custom cam would probably be better... but for my purposes it works well. There will be compromises for a street car that sees race duty vs. a dedicated race car setup.

You will get faster lap times with upgraded suspension and brakes then a ton more power until you get a bunch of seat time under your belt.

I'm at the point of either doing a 402 or 416 stroker for mid 2006.. but worried about not being able to put the additional 100rwtq down as my only gear options with the stock diff are 3:90's/4:10's. In the 1st half of 2006 I want to get lots of seat time and really get every last ounce out of the car with the current combo before adding more power.

Definately get the alignment dialed in by a shop that knows F-bodies. Negative camber and a little toe change can make a car turn in very nicely (see sig).

Good luck.... road racing is a great time and the biggest adrenaline rush I have found yet (aside from shooting water ballons with a ballon launcher at cop cars as a teen ).

SouthFL.02.SS

Beefed up bottom end sure buys you some peace of mind.
Sounds like you have an awesome setup, and thanks for your in depth response.

LS1 Swapper

I run a TSP 231/237 in my car (BMW) big part of which is because of the 'lazy' lobes, easy on the valve train. I have, and will be tracking heavily. I just finished my Fast 90/NW 90 install and will be dynoing tomorrow. Seat of the pants says it really woke up the engine, pulls much harder throughout. (up from an LS1 intake)

Make sure you address the oiling issues with the F-body pan, I run 7L of oil and did extensive baffling in the oil pan. An oil cooler is a must on these engines used for track days as well as a high quality aftermarket radiator and proper ducting. I have my redline set to 7100rpms for overrev, but shift ~6800-6900rpms.

You'll go much faster with a well setup suspension then lots of hp, both is the best though

Invest in some high qualitly brakes, and remove as much weight as you can from the car.

I'd suggest doing the suspension, and brakes first. Then next season build up an engine. Probably save you from doing it twice with the experience you get with a near stock engine.