Head designers challenge for 2d QTR 06 :)
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Head designers challenge for 2d QTR 06 :) After reading many topics on this board, and learning everyday...I would like to see us take a step forward. So, one way to do this would be to get some Cylinder Head flow information running. I cant help but to think Dart331Stroker has valid information and points about wet flow characteristics compared to the old school .28" flow and how the increased density will effect performance.
What I would like to see is, the different head porters, and makers of new castings, step up and flow their heads the same way. This could help the whole community as well as the individual company.
We have proven time and again that just because X makes THE BEST product doesnt mean we (the buyer) are always going to buy it. So there shouldn't be any reason not to do something like this. It is after all, to help out!
Charlie
What I would like to see is, the different head porters, and makers of new castings, step up and flow their heads the same way. This could help the whole community as well as the individual company.
We have proven time and again that just because X makes THE BEST product doesnt mean we (the buyer) are always going to buy it. So there shouldn't be any reason not to do something like this. It is after all, to help out!
Charlie
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Guess its not beneficial for all these heads to come together at one bench and be fixed for flow testing? Damn. I thought it would be a great, no excuse comparison. But I see why there could be reservation also.
Charlie
Charlie
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Bret, I totally understand the bench issue and logistics of getting this put together. If I had the funds I'd try and set this up myself...but Uncle Sam dont pay that much. I'm glad to know my thought wasn't that original (that can be bad news sometimes), too bad it wont happen.
Something like GMHTP should do a real head shoot out... they didn't really get all the guy together in their last one. Hell I would do it if they paid me and had me test all the heads, it might be a worthwhile article.
This time lets do all the aftermarket heads, Dart, AFR, ETP, TFS, RHS, All Pro and test them the right way. It would be even better to have a dyno mule short block as well. 347 with forged pistons with valve reliefs for all the heads!
Bret
This time lets do all the aftermarket heads, Dart, AFR, ETP, TFS, RHS, All Pro and test them the right way. It would be even better to have a dyno mule short block as well. 347 with forged pistons with valve reliefs for all the heads!
Bret
The real deal would be to get LS1 tech to pay somebody like Bret to flow the heads that price the same against each other.
Once you pick the best, I will run them on a engine dyno to find out what heads produce the best power.
Kurt
Once you pick the best, I will run them on a engine dyno to find out what heads produce the best power.
Kurt
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Brett,
Are you thinking of anything application specific? Or just stock displacement street type stuff? Sounds kinda neat. What kind of depression can you pull? The lsx stuff can still exhibit problems above 45".
Dennis
Are you thinking of anything application specific? Or just stock displacement street type stuff? Sounds kinda neat. What kind of depression can you pull? The lsx stuff can still exhibit problems above 45".
Dennis
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Kurt
Originally Posted by airflowdevelop
Kurt,
I agree completely.. But it would also be nice to have a couple test vehicles to see how the stuff accelerates down the track.
Dennis
I agree completely.. But it would also be nice to have a couple test vehicles to see how the stuff accelerates down the track.
Dennis
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Originally Posted by 427
Nineball has a drag car and lives in "we race all year" Texas......This could work!
Kurt
Kurt
You can race all year in Hawaii and I happen to have a forged 347 w/ 2cc vr's as well, yours to test with FREE
I am surprised to see the little attention this is drawing, but very glad. I would like to see the heads compared to eachother not so much based off price, but could throw that into a column for reference:
Manufacturer, Porter, Wet Flow @ xx", CC data, HP/TQ, ET, Price, Notes
Something like that. All on the same bench, and same engine at the same AFR and timing. Even if a particular head allows more timing to be used because of double quench area or WTFE, do it as level as possible. Or is that just too much?
CAT3,
Only problem with you is that you would need to be sponsored by UPS or FedEx, just shipped a set of AFR LT1 heads to Hawaii and with insurance it was $140!
If you ran all of the heads you would want to run them at their best timing... if they make more power because of a better burn that should be part of the equation. They all should be the same chamber volume though or use head gaskets to get the compression ratio to within .1 from test to test to take that variable out of it.
Dennis,
The old manometer can't go much higher! It's only a Superflow 600 bench! I would love to flow them to 80-100"... hell they definately run at higher depressions than that on a motor.
One of the Ford mags did a test a year or two ago with all the aftermarket Ford heads in this same manner. Flow bench tested them (but not to the extent I would like too) and then dyno tested them on what was a pretty normal motor for each head. The problem was then never looked at CSA and port length, they just grouped them by port volume and flow. I would think that a 5.7-6.0 L motor would be a good test bed to start with.
I would like to do some out of the box heads, and then have them ported and compared again. That would be possible with all of the heads. I think that would even up the field pretty well. It would be easy for guys to compare something as cast like the Dart or TFS against a comparable prices ported stock casting then port the Dart or TFS and now it's comparable against a CNC ported head like the ETP or AFR. I wouldn't be averse to even having a good porter correct what he thinks is wrong with the CNC heads to see they can be improved on as well.
Kurt,
I think you guys would be the perfect place to dyno them.... you do a lot of LS1 stuff and have the cell setup to make this easy. I might have to drive all the heads up there myself.
Bret
Only problem with you is that you would need to be sponsored by UPS or FedEx, just shipped a set of AFR LT1 heads to Hawaii and with insurance it was $140!
If you ran all of the heads you would want to run them at their best timing... if they make more power because of a better burn that should be part of the equation. They all should be the same chamber volume though or use head gaskets to get the compression ratio to within .1 from test to test to take that variable out of it.
Dennis,
The old manometer can't go much higher! It's only a Superflow 600 bench! I would love to flow them to 80-100"... hell they definately run at higher depressions than that on a motor.
One of the Ford mags did a test a year or two ago with all the aftermarket Ford heads in this same manner. Flow bench tested them (but not to the extent I would like too) and then dyno tested them on what was a pretty normal motor for each head. The problem was then never looked at CSA and port length, they just grouped them by port volume and flow. I would think that a 5.7-6.0 L motor would be a good test bed to start with.
I would like to do some out of the box heads, and then have them ported and compared again. That would be possible with all of the heads. I think that would even up the field pretty well. It would be easy for guys to compare something as cast like the Dart or TFS against a comparable prices ported stock casting then port the Dart or TFS and now it's comparable against a CNC ported head like the ETP or AFR. I wouldn't be averse to even having a good porter correct what he thinks is wrong with the CNC heads to see they can be improved on as well.
Kurt,
I think you guys would be the perfect place to dyno them.... you do a lot of LS1 stuff and have the cell setup to make this easy. I might have to drive all the heads up there myself.
Bret
Last edited by SStrokerAce; Jan 18, 2006 at 02:12 PM.
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Bret, your not supposed to know about the shipping prices man....come on. And imagine paying for a shortblock, a TH350, Heads etc....hell damn near everything!
I agree compression should be close, and I see your point on the timing issue too. Valid.
I agree compression should be close, and I see your point on the timing issue too. Valid.
I still think this is a good idea... If Kurt and Dennis are up for all of this I would see what I can do with the magazine people to see if they are up for this.... someone at Primedia has got to like this idea. Kurt, Dennis and I are relatively close to one another so it would be very feesable.
Bret
Bret
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Bret,
I will help anyway I can. My only concern is time! This time of year is real bad (everyone's trying to get freshened for the spring). Can we schedule this for some time mid / late spring?
Dennis
I will help anyway I can. My only concern is time! This time of year is real bad (everyone's trying to get freshened for the spring). Can we schedule this for some time mid / late spring?
Dennis
Dennis,
I think the biggest factor here is heads.... getting them from the manufactures. I do agree on the time, I don't even have it now either! Couldn't even think about it till then. Might be a good Spring/Summer project.
I gotta call you sometime soon and ask you some things, hope everything with Comp worked out for you.
Bret
I think the biggest factor here is heads.... getting them from the manufactures. I do agree on the time, I don't even have it now either! Couldn't even think about it till then. Might be a good Spring/Summer project.
I gotta call you sometime soon and ask you some things, hope everything with Comp worked out for you.
Bret
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Bret,
I had some repair stuff that he took care of. We will see, I just kinda got used to davis and since he left, everyone they gave me was either lazy or drunk and high. Will see what works out. Thanks Again.
Later is normally better than early, although I am working on a way to tell if the phone is ringing. I need a screen in front of my bench with strobe lights and caller ID. I will be clearing up some paper work in the shop late tonight if that works for you.
Dennis
I had some repair stuff that he took care of. We will see, I just kinda got used to davis and since he left, everyone they gave me was either lazy or drunk and high. Will see what works out. Thanks Again.
Later is normally better than early, although I am working on a way to tell if the phone is ringing. I need a screen in front of my bench with strobe lights and caller ID. I will be clearing up some paper work in the shop late tonight if that works for you.
Dennis