TSP SR 408 Big Issues
06-04-2006, 08:23 PM
#21
Spring oilers are part of aftermarket designed valve covers that take pressurized oil and oil valve springs. Oil carries off excess heat in springs, drastically reducing spring failure. Expensive, but a must when running big boost on high lift, high seat pressure springs.
06-05-2006, 06:06 AM
#24
I just looked at an invoice for what is "possibly" your heads and the springs are a Comp 999-16, The installed height was 220 lbs @ 1.900" and coil bind "checked" at 1.040" When I saw this post my first thought was spring pressure/float. After seeing your pistons and valves I would suspect something else, they should all look about the same, and they don't. What method did you use to lash the valves?, I prefer the firing order method like is outlined on our web site. Good luck with your issues
06-05-2006, 06:54 AM
#25
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If that's true, about the springs, then he's got .095" before .050" away from coil bind. Ofcourse that's without lash or deflection taken into account so add another .030-.040 to that .095 number. Something that may be worth trying is shimming the springs up do tighten the spring up and possibly eliminate any possibility of the potential harmonics they are getting.
Also, I think this was touched on earlier but lets bring it up again. Remember, when you set the lash in these things cold these aluminum block aluminum head combos grow around .010 and the iron block aluminum combos seem to be more around .008; therefore, the cold lash needs to be set .010 or .008, depending upon your combo, tighter then what is needed hot. Further, cams have lash ramps built into them and the lash should not be set there as lash ramps introduce more lash into the system right before getting to the lobe. I like bringing up the exhaust lobe of the cylinder and watching the exhaust valve just start to lift, then adjust the intake as you know you're on the base circle and not on the lash ramp of the intake. Next, after adjusting that intake rocker, rotate the motor till you get to the lift of the intake for the same cylinder and watch it till you start to go past peak lift of the intake, and on the way to the intake valve closing adjust the exhaust as once again you know your on the base circle of the exhaust at this point.
One more thing to note is that valve seats can move around in the head after initial run in and such. This can reduce the lash you found when initially setting up the motor so make sure to check this.
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
edit: Just re reading through the thread you probably ended up with tons of lash based off setting the lash at .020ish cold. Lots and lots of extra lash can be a source of valve bounce and float from what i've been told by people in the know so this may have caused your contact issues with the pistons as well. Did not know you had contact issues till this morning. Either way good luck and hopefully nothing too too terrible has occured
Also, I think this was touched on earlier but lets bring it up again. Remember, when you set the lash in these things cold these aluminum block aluminum head combos grow around .010 and the iron block aluminum combos seem to be more around .008; therefore, the cold lash needs to be set .010 or .008, depending upon your combo, tighter then what is needed hot. Further, cams have lash ramps built into them and the lash should not be set there as lash ramps introduce more lash into the system right before getting to the lobe. I like bringing up the exhaust lobe of the cylinder and watching the exhaust valve just start to lift, then adjust the intake as you know you're on the base circle and not on the lash ramp of the intake. Next, after adjusting that intake rocker, rotate the motor till you get to the lift of the intake for the same cylinder and watch it till you start to go past peak lift of the intake, and on the way to the intake valve closing adjust the exhaust as once again you know your on the base circle of the exhaust at this point.
One more thing to note is that valve seats can move around in the head after initial run in and such. This can reduce the lash you found when initially setting up the motor so make sure to check this.
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
edit: Just re reading through the thread you probably ended up with tons of lash based off setting the lash at .020ish cold. Lots and lots of extra lash can be a source of valve bounce and float from what i've been told by people in the know so this may have caused your contact issues with the pistons as well. Did not know you had contact issues till this morning. Either way good luck and hopefully nothing too too terrible has occured
Last edited by DAPSUPRSLO; 06-05-2006 at 07:04 AM.
06-05-2006, 12:41 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
I just looked at an invoice for what is "possibly" your heads and the springs are a Comp 999-16, The installed height was 220 lbs @ 1.900" and coil bind "checked" at 1.040" When I saw this post my first thought was spring pressure/float. After seeing your pistons and valves I would suspect something else, they should all look about the same, and they don't. What method did you use to lash the valves?, I prefer the firing order method like is outlined on our web site. Good luck with your issues
Brian
I did what TSP recommended which was with the exhaust valve completely open set the intake lash to .023 cold.
06-05-2006, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 93LS1RX7
Brian
I did what TSP recommended which was with the exhaust valve completely open set the intake lash to .023 cold.
I did what TSP recommended which was with the exhaust valve completely open set the intake lash to .023 cold.
06-05-2006, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DAPSUPRSLO
Did you verrify the hot lash then after setting .023 cold. You probably had around .030ish hot lash which is a whole lot unless you're running a crazy tk type lobe (very very very very agressive lobe).
06-05-2006, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 93LS1RX7
Again TSP stated it sould be .023 cold and .018 hot. When I checked the hot the .018 feeler was snug on all of them
06-05-2006, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by DAPSUPRSLO
Yeah, I picked that up from the previous replies in this thread, but did you actually check it yourself? Just trying to help! If that's what they told you i'd talk with them about it for sure. Best of luck to you!
Yes I checked it myself.
Talked to Jason and he wants to talk to Brian Tooley from TEA to see what he thinks. I mean the car lost 100rwhp from the first to the last pull so there are definately bent valves.
06-05-2006, 02:49 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by 93LS1RX7
I wasnt trying to be an ***, sorry if it came across that way.
Yes I checked it myself.
Talked to Jason and he wants to talk to Brian Tooley from TEA to see what he thinks. I mean the car lost 100rwhp from the first to the last pull so there are definately bent valves.
Yes I checked it myself.
Talked to Jason and he wants to talk to Brian Tooley from TEA to see what he thinks. I mean the car lost 100rwhp from the first to the last pull so there are definately bent valves.
Yeah, something is way wrong. Harmonics in the springs can really mess things up too, will make spring pressure go away real fast. Do you have a "on the head spring checker"? It's the best $75 you'll spend if not.You did check it? It came out like he said then, that is .023 cold and .018 hot? Those seats must have moved around if that's the case.
06-05-2006, 04:43 PM
#32
Let me state a few things:
1. The cam was NOT degreed improperly. If it was, you'd be seeing problems on every piston. If there was a degree problem, EVERY ONE of the intake or exhaust valves would have contacted. However, that's not the case. Your contact areas are sporadic.
2. The valve reliefs were NOT cut improperly or too shallow. They were built specifically for your setup, and again, you'd see problems on every piston.
3. If there was a problem with either of the above mentioned, you would have never seen 500+ RWHP on the first pull.
Let me also mention that we did not set the engine up with pushrods or rocker arms, so it is a safe assumption that we never set valve lash. You can set lash 20 times correctly, but if it is set up incorrectly the first time and damages parts, the times you lash the valves correctly after that point is irrelevant. I don't see you having a valve spring problem with Comp 999's. I've revved them to 7,300 RPM in the past with no problems whatsoever, and I'm building a 370 cid solid-roller for my car using the same springs.
As for setting lash, it's going to change depending on if you're using an iron or aluminum block. Our last solid-roller was happy at .018" hot, and .023" COLD would typically get it very close. Cold is a starting point, though. We will always verify the lash once it's up to running temperature. FYI, it was an iron-block engine. Even with a cam manufacturers' lash recommendations, it's always good to get it on a dyno and try a few different lash settings to see what the engine likes and doesn't like. Again, WE DID NOT SETUP THE LASH, PUSHROD LENGTH, ETC.
So, let's summarize everything here. You purchased a race-only solid-roller engine from us over a year ago. From your first conversation with Jason, he told you that you'd have to be comfortable with setting valve lash. The car made 500 RWHP on its initial pull, and the power decreased with every pull thereafter. If there was a degree problem or a clearance issue w/ too little valve reliefs, it would never have made any power and ALL of the pistons would have contacted the same amount. We've run the same cam setup with a head decked .090", so we feel confident in knowing how that cam sets up and what kind of clearance is needed. There's certainly an issue if the engine is dropping a LOT of power from one pull to the next. All we ask for is the opportunity to make things right instead of being blamed before anyone knows what's going on. We won't know what's happening until we have the short-block back in our hands. If there is an issue, then we'll take care of it. We're going out of our way to help, even though this is a race-only application that we would not warranty. We want it to run properly; that's why we're going to do the FULL long-block assembly with rockers, pushrods, etc. before sending it back again.
Trevor & Jason
Co-Owners, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
1. The cam was NOT degreed improperly. If it was, you'd be seeing problems on every piston. If there was a degree problem, EVERY ONE of the intake or exhaust valves would have contacted. However, that's not the case. Your contact areas are sporadic.
2. The valve reliefs were NOT cut improperly or too shallow. They were built specifically for your setup, and again, you'd see problems on every piston.
3. If there was a problem with either of the above mentioned, you would have never seen 500+ RWHP on the first pull.
Let me also mention that we did not set the engine up with pushrods or rocker arms, so it is a safe assumption that we never set valve lash. You can set lash 20 times correctly, but if it is set up incorrectly the first time and damages parts, the times you lash the valves correctly after that point is irrelevant. I don't see you having a valve spring problem with Comp 999's. I've revved them to 7,300 RPM in the past with no problems whatsoever, and I'm building a 370 cid solid-roller for my car using the same springs.
As for setting lash, it's going to change depending on if you're using an iron or aluminum block. Our last solid-roller was happy at .018" hot, and .023" COLD would typically get it very close. Cold is a starting point, though. We will always verify the lash once it's up to running temperature. FYI, it was an iron-block engine. Even with a cam manufacturers' lash recommendations, it's always good to get it on a dyno and try a few different lash settings to see what the engine likes and doesn't like. Again, WE DID NOT SETUP THE LASH, PUSHROD LENGTH, ETC.
So, let's summarize everything here. You purchased a race-only solid-roller engine from us over a year ago. From your first conversation with Jason, he told you that you'd have to be comfortable with setting valve lash. The car made 500 RWHP on its initial pull, and the power decreased with every pull thereafter. If there was a degree problem or a clearance issue w/ too little valve reliefs, it would never have made any power and ALL of the pistons would have contacted the same amount. We've run the same cam setup with a head decked .090", so we feel confident in knowing how that cam sets up and what kind of clearance is needed. There's certainly an issue if the engine is dropping a LOT of power from one pull to the next. All we ask for is the opportunity to make things right instead of being blamed before anyone knows what's going on. We won't know what's happening until we have the short-block back in our hands. If there is an issue, then we'll take care of it. We're going out of our way to help, even though this is a race-only application that we would not warranty. We want it to run properly; that's why we're going to do the FULL long-block assembly with rockers, pushrods, etc. before sending it back again.
Trevor & Jason
Co-Owners, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
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06-05-2006, 04:56 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by Trevor @ Texas Speed & Perf.
Let me state a few things:
1. The cam was NOT degreed improperly. If it was, you'd be seeing problems on every piston. If there was a degree problem, EVERY ONE of the intake or exhaust valves would have contacted. However, that's not the case. Your contact areas are sporadic.
2. The valve reliefs were NOT cut improperly or too shallow. They were built specifically for your setup, and again, you'd see problems on every piston.
3. If there was a problem with either of the above mentioned, you would have never seen 500+ RWHP on the first pull.
Let me also mention that we did not set the engine up with pushrods or rocker arms, so it is a safe assumption that we never set valve lash. You can set lash 20 times correctly, but if it is set up incorrectly the first time and damages parts, the times you lash the valves correctly after that point is irrelevant. I don't see you having a valve spring problem with Comp 999's. I've revved them to 7,300 RPM in the past with no problems whatsoever, and I'm building a 370 cid solid-roller for my car using the same springs.
As for setting lash, it's going to change depending on if you're using an iron or aluminum block. Our last solid-roller was happy at .018" hot, and .023" COLD would typically get it very close. Cold is a starting point, though. We will always verify the lash once it's up to running temperature. FYI, it was an iron-block engine. Even with a cam manufacturers' lash recommendations, it's always good to get it on a dyno and try a few different lash settings to see what the engine likes and doesn't like. Again, WE DID NOT SETUP THE LASH, PUSHROD LENGTH, ETC.
So, let's summarize everything here. You purchased a race-only solid-roller engine from us over a year ago. From your first conversation with Jason, he told you that you'd have to be comfortable with setting valve lash. The car made 500 RWHP on its initial pull, and the power decreased with every pull thereafter. If there was a degree problem or a clearance issue w/ too little valve reliefs, it would never have made any power and ALL of the pistons would have contacted the same amount. We've run the same cam setup with a head decked .090", so we feel confident in knowing how that cam sets up and what kind of clearance is needed. There's certainly an issue if the engine is dropping a LOT of power from one pull to the next. All we ask for is the opportunity to make things right instead of being blamed before anyone knows what's going on. We won't know what's happening until we have the short-block back in our hands. If there is an issue, then we'll take care of it. We're going out of our way to help, even though this is a race-only application that we would not warranty. We want it to run properly; that's why we're going to do the FULL long-block assembly with rockers, pushrods, etc. before sending it back again.
Trevor & Jason
Co-Owners, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
1. The cam was NOT degreed improperly. If it was, you'd be seeing problems on every piston. If there was a degree problem, EVERY ONE of the intake or exhaust valves would have contacted. However, that's not the case. Your contact areas are sporadic.
2. The valve reliefs were NOT cut improperly or too shallow. They were built specifically for your setup, and again, you'd see problems on every piston.
3. If there was a problem with either of the above mentioned, you would have never seen 500+ RWHP on the first pull.
Let me also mention that we did not set the engine up with pushrods or rocker arms, so it is a safe assumption that we never set valve lash. You can set lash 20 times correctly, but if it is set up incorrectly the first time and damages parts, the times you lash the valves correctly after that point is irrelevant. I don't see you having a valve spring problem with Comp 999's. I've revved them to 7,300 RPM in the past with no problems whatsoever, and I'm building a 370 cid solid-roller for my car using the same springs.
As for setting lash, it's going to change depending on if you're using an iron or aluminum block. Our last solid-roller was happy at .018" hot, and .023" COLD would typically get it very close. Cold is a starting point, though. We will always verify the lash once it's up to running temperature. FYI, it was an iron-block engine. Even with a cam manufacturers' lash recommendations, it's always good to get it on a dyno and try a few different lash settings to see what the engine likes and doesn't like. Again, WE DID NOT SETUP THE LASH, PUSHROD LENGTH, ETC.
So, let's summarize everything here. You purchased a race-only solid-roller engine from us over a year ago. From your first conversation with Jason, he told you that you'd have to be comfortable with setting valve lash. The car made 500 RWHP on its initial pull, and the power decreased with every pull thereafter. If there was a degree problem or a clearance issue w/ too little valve reliefs, it would never have made any power and ALL of the pistons would have contacted the same amount. We've run the same cam setup with a head decked .090", so we feel confident in knowing how that cam sets up and what kind of clearance is needed. There's certainly an issue if the engine is dropping a LOT of power from one pull to the next. All we ask for is the opportunity to make things right instead of being blamed before anyone knows what's going on. We won't know what's happening until we have the short-block back in our hands. If there is an issue, then we'll take care of it. We're going out of our way to help, even though this is a race-only application that we would not warranty. We want it to run properly; that's why we're going to do the FULL long-block assembly with rockers, pushrods, etc. before sending it back again.
Trevor & Jason
Co-Owners, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
06-05-2006, 09:06 PM
#34
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I will wait until we see what the issue is before I post anymore. TSP is looking at the shortblock/TEA at the heads.
Last edited by 93LS1RX7; 06-05-2006 at 09:54 PM.
06-06-2006, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 2000PewterZ28
Sounds like the whole story is coming out now.No way its TSP's fault,they didn't install the rockers.Solid roller setups are not for beginners.
I never stated anything different so the "whole" story has been out the whole time.
06-06-2006, 11:39 AM
#37
Mine did the same thing bro! 
It turns out it was trans about to take a dump, every pass we lost HP untill i was about 15 under 400 
Soon after CAM BOOOOM! tranny gone. BTW i have an A4 but if you have an M6 it could be your clutch
It turns out it was trans about to take a dump, every pass we lost HP untill i was about 15 under 400 Soon after CAM BOOOOM! tranny gone. BTW i have an A4 but if you have an M6 it could be your clutch
06-16-2006, 03:25 PM
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Update #1
Got an update today from TEA. The good news is only one valve needed to be replaced. They said that they had to true up all the valves but none of them were "bent" with the exception of one. There was no leakdown issues with any of them.
The interesting thing is that they said 2 of the seats had sunk into the heads.....They said it is possible when the valve job was done at AFR that when AFR reinstalled the seats that there was a gap and once the head heat cycled it sank in. They said the 2 seats were .010 into the head. They are going to do a new valve job on it, they already grinded all the valves true and they have the one new intake valve on order.
They are going to check the spring pressures when they reassemble the heads next week to check on valve float.
There was a mixup with the shipping of the block (It came back to me 2 days later apparently Freightquote fliflopped the shipper/receiver) so TSP won probably get the block until early to mid next week.
I want to publicly thank Mike and Brian at TEA for their help on this. They have been more than willing to anwser all my stupid questions without hesitation and took a look almost immediately at my heads. A true class group.
Also TSP remains supportive and responsive to the situation. Hopefully there is fairly good news when they take a look at the motor. I maintain full faith that when I get this motor back I will once again have one badass hot rod.
Got an update today from TEA. The good news is only one valve needed to be replaced. They said that they had to true up all the valves but none of them were "bent" with the exception of one. There was no leakdown issues with any of them.
The interesting thing is that they said 2 of the seats had sunk into the heads.....They said it is possible when the valve job was done at AFR that when AFR reinstalled the seats that there was a gap and once the head heat cycled it sank in. They said the 2 seats were .010 into the head. They are going to do a new valve job on it, they already grinded all the valves true and they have the one new intake valve on order.
They are going to check the spring pressures when they reassemble the heads next week to check on valve float.
There was a mixup with the shipping of the block (It came back to me 2 days later apparently Freightquote fliflopped the shipper/receiver) so TSP won probably get the block until early to mid next week.
I want to publicly thank Mike and Brian at TEA for their help on this. They have been more than willing to anwser all my stupid questions without hesitation and took a look almost immediately at my heads. A true class group.
Also TSP remains supportive and responsive to the situation. Hopefully there is fairly good news when they take a look at the motor. I maintain full faith that when I get this motor back I will once again have one badass hot rod.