Magic Stick V.4 239/242 Camshaft
06-23-2006, 11:43 AM
#121
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by blkZ28spt
Whatever cam happens to be in your car when you take it to a professional and have it tuned.
My MS3 runs great on the street. Fires right up, idles smoothly (if you treat it right, which is very simple), virtually never dies (1.5 years it has died twice and both were my fault) and virtually never surges.
There are, of course, limits. A T-Rex is not capable of being as nice as an MS3, which is not capable of being as nice as a 224. I believe an MS3/MS4 is still in the daily driveable range. At least in MY range.
My MS3 runs great on the street. Fires right up, idles smoothly (if you treat it right, which is very simple), virtually never dies (1.5 years it has died twice and both were my fault) and virtually never surges.
There are, of course, limits. A T-Rex is not capable of being as nice as an MS3, which is not capable of being as nice as a 224. I believe an MS3/MS4 is still in the daily driveable range. At least in MY range.
Here's all the tech you need then. Idles smoothly (if you treat it right), virtually never dies, virtually never surges. So it virtually drives like stock. Virtual reality has come a long way.
I'll stick to reality.
The original poster wanted opinions if a cam this big would make a good daily driver. You've seen lots of posts by many different people telling you that it wouldn't be a good daily driver cam. You've also seen lots of posts by the same 3-4 guys saying that it would be a good daily driver. Hope that helps.
06-23-2006, 11:53 AM
#122
11 Second Club
*edited*
Care to answer that question?
Originally Posted by Rubadubdub
Blkz28 - Your cam is totally mismatched for your gears. Yes, more likely than not you'd go faster with a smaller cam that made more low end torque and didn't have to be spun to 6800.
Originally Posted by blkZ28spt
Gears don't matter nearly as much in autos that have high stall converters as they do in manuals.
At WOT I never really see less than 5.5k rpm. If I never see less than 5.5k RPM at WOT, why would a cam that makes LOW RPM power go faster?
At WOT I never really see less than 5.5k rpm. If I never see less than 5.5k RPM at WOT, why would a cam that makes LOW RPM power go faster?
Last edited by blkZ28spt; 06-23-2006 at 12:58 PM.
06-23-2006, 02:36 PM
#123
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sure, scan your car while going down the 1/4 and see what RPM you cross the traps at. To take full advantage of that cam you should be crossing the traps at an RPM close to the where the cam peaks. You're not.
06-23-2006, 03:35 PM
#124
11 Second Club
Originally Posted by Rubadubdub
Sure, scan your car while going down the 1/4 and see what RPM you cross the traps at. To take full advantage of that cam you should be crossing the traps at an RPM close to the where the cam peaks. You're not.
When I cross the traps, as of my last runs (which were in summer heat, there is room for improvement), I am at an RPM that should produce approximately 375 rwhp. Even if I went with a smaller cam that made less peak hp, and peaked lower such that I could cross the traps at the peak I highly doubt it would be more than the current 375 rwhp.
Not to mention the fact that I go all the way up to my shift points in first and second, using all 385 rwhp, which is more than a smaller cam would make.
Last edited by blkZ28spt; 06-23-2006 at 03:43 PM.
06-23-2006, 03:46 PM
#125
Originally Posted by blkZ28spt
Not exactly. There is a lot more going on than simply the RPM you are running as you cross the traps. In order to go the fastest/quickest you need the most power under the curve for the RPM range you are operating at.
you guys are like little kids, but it is entertaining, nonetheless. also, to get the most out of your cam, you need a stall that will drop your shifts back no farther than your powercurve. i think "under the curve" power is different to everyone, i simply use 4k as the bar, in our 346" motors, if most cams haven't "came alive" by then, they're not going to. ideally you should cross the traps +/- 200 rpm of your shift point, as this ensures you've completely used all of the powerband. i will experiment for this as i am afraid i won't trap enough to tap out my 373s. we will see...but i really feel some 410s going in after the cam swap.
06-23-2006, 06:02 PM
#127
Simply put, if you have a proper setup for both a big and small cam setup (proper heads/intake/stall/gears/valvetrain for each cam, respectively), the big cam car will be faster AND it will still be streetable.
If you go with the MS4, which I imagine could be no worse than those daily driving the TRex, G5X3 and MS3, go with the appropriate stall/gear setup. Go with at least a 4k stall, maybe even a 4400 stall if you are NA and a set of 3.73 or 4.10 gears. If you daily drive it, 3.73s might be a better route than the 4.10s. It will make some difference in traps, but not a huge one and you will hold on to some drivability.
However, that being said it is my opinion that if you have to ask if a cam that size is good for a daily driver, it's probably not good for you as a daily driver.
If you go with the MS4, which I imagine could be no worse than those daily driving the TRex, G5X3 and MS3, go with the appropriate stall/gear setup. Go with at least a 4k stall, maybe even a 4400 stall if you are NA and a set of 3.73 or 4.10 gears. If you daily drive it, 3.73s might be a better route than the 4.10s. It will make some difference in traps, but not a huge one and you will hold on to some drivability.
However, that being said it is my opinion that if you have to ask if a cam that size is good for a daily driver, it's probably not good for you as a daily driver.
06-23-2006, 06:16 PM
#128
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LOL. There's some banter going on but it's all in good fun.
BLK- The most important thing in drag racing, after the 60', is getting into top gear as quickly as possible. You want to spend as much time as possible in the top gear (1 to 1 ratio gear) of your tranny, 3rd gear for the A4. That's when you get the most out of the area under the curve. This is not an absolute but it's the rule 95% of the time. I say this because there once was a NHRA Stock Eliminator record setting 86 or 87 Turbo Regal that was running 5.13 gears and finishing the 1/4 at the top of 4th gear with his 200 4R tranny.
The time spent in 1st and 2nd gears with our A4s is no where near as important as the time spent in 3rd. With the proper rear end gears you'll spend 1/2 to 2/3 of the time spent to cover the 1/4 mile in 3rd gear. That's when you'll get the quickest elapsed times.
A loose converter is a blessing to the LS1. W/O a doubt it's far more important than gears. The Yank PT 4400 has proven to be the best even on bolt on cars, with engines where HP peaks around 57-5800 RPM. Stop and think about how loose a 4400 stall is for a second and how amazing the stock LS1 is that it actally needs that much stall. Now throw a big lumpy cam into the equation and it still works well but more stall would produce even better results.
As great as a looser converter is, w/o the proper gear ratio you'll never MAX OUT the combination. You might get close but it won't be maxed out.
So a loose conveter backed up by steeper gears will provide the best results. And an addititonal benefit of the gears is that it makes the converter "feel" less loose on the street when pulling away from a stop light. It also helps keep the tranny fluid temps from getting as hot because the steeper gears get the car moving with less converter slipage. So the streetabilty of the combination will improve but at the cost of lower gas mileage.
It's the combination of parts that makes or breaks a set-up. A big cam can't do it all by itself. If the combination is wrong for the big cam then it can actually perform worse than a smaller cam that's more in tune with lesser stall and gears, as in your set-up Blk.
BLK- The most important thing in drag racing, after the 60', is getting into top gear as quickly as possible. You want to spend as much time as possible in the top gear (1 to 1 ratio gear) of your tranny, 3rd gear for the A4. That's when you get the most out of the area under the curve. This is not an absolute but it's the rule 95% of the time. I say this because there once was a NHRA Stock Eliminator record setting 86 or 87 Turbo Regal that was running 5.13 gears and finishing the 1/4 at the top of 4th gear with his 200 4R tranny.
The time spent in 1st and 2nd gears with our A4s is no where near as important as the time spent in 3rd. With the proper rear end gears you'll spend 1/2 to 2/3 of the time spent to cover the 1/4 mile in 3rd gear. That's when you'll get the quickest elapsed times.
A loose converter is a blessing to the LS1. W/O a doubt it's far more important than gears. The Yank PT 4400 has proven to be the best even on bolt on cars, with engines where HP peaks around 57-5800 RPM. Stop and think about how loose a 4400 stall is for a second and how amazing the stock LS1 is that it actally needs that much stall. Now throw a big lumpy cam into the equation and it still works well but more stall would produce even better results.
As great as a looser converter is, w/o the proper gear ratio you'll never MAX OUT the combination. You might get close but it won't be maxed out.
So a loose conveter backed up by steeper gears will provide the best results. And an addititonal benefit of the gears is that it makes the converter "feel" less loose on the street when pulling away from a stop light. It also helps keep the tranny fluid temps from getting as hot because the steeper gears get the car moving with less converter slipage. So the streetabilty of the combination will improve but at the cost of lower gas mileage.
It's the combination of parts that makes or breaks a set-up. A big cam can't do it all by itself. If the combination is wrong for the big cam then it can actually perform worse than a smaller cam that's more in tune with lesser stall and gears, as in your set-up Blk.
06-23-2006, 06:35 PM
#129
Originally Posted by s346k
you guys are like little kids, but it is entertaining, nonetheless. also, to get the most out of your cam, you need a stall that will drop your shifts back no farther than your powercurve. i think "under the curve" power is different to everyone, i simply use 4k as the bar, in our 346" motors, if most cams haven't "came alive" by then, they're not going to. ideally you should cross the traps +/- 200 rpm of your shift point, as this ensures you've completely used all of the powerband. i will experiment for this as i am afraid i won't trap enough to tap out my 373s. we will see...but i really feel some 410s going in after the cam swap.
The thing is that theory may go against what many believe to be 'streetable'...even though they've already got the huge cam and stiff *** clutch or big convertor.
If you're going to maximize your setup, definitely go with a gear that will maximize the curve, as you said.
Heres a little formula thats usually pretty close to correct that I heard about a while back. Say you wanna know what kind of revs you're going to be turning if you trap 115 mph.
You can take 115, multiply that by your rear gear ratio, say 4.10s, multiply that by your transmission gear ratio (being 1:1 gear, or 3rd or 4th/auto vs. 6 spd...but account for this when figuring MPH in an overdrive gear, such as .70 in a 4l60e), and multiply that by the magic number 336, then divide that by your tire diameter. Your answer will typically be a couple hundred rpm less than what it gives you.
115 x 4.10 x 336 / 26 = 6093.23~, being closer to 6300~ rpm at the traps
06-23-2006, 07:09 PM
#130
11 Second Club
Originally Posted by Rubadubdub
LOL. There's some banter going on but it's all in good fun.
BLK- The most important thing in drag racing, after the 60', is getting into top gear as quickly as possible. You want to spend as much time as possible in the top gear (1 to 1 ratio gear) of your tranny, 3rd gear for the A4. That's when you get the most out of the area under the curve. This is not an absolute but it's the rule 95% of the time. I say this because there once was a NHRA Stock Eliminator record setting 86 or 87 Turbo Regal that was running 5.13 gears and finishing the 1/4 at the top of 4th gear with his 200 4R tranny.
The time spent in 1st and 2nd gears with our A4s is no where near as important as the time spent in 3rd. With the proper rear end gears you'll spend 1/2 to 2/3 of the time spent to cover the 1/4 mile in 3rd gear. That's when you'll get the quickest elapsed times.
A loose converter is a blessing to the LS1. W/O a doubt it's far more important than gears. The Yank PT 4400 has proven to be the best even on bolt on cars, with engines where HP peaks around 57-5800 RPM. Stop and think about how loose a 4400 stall is for a second and how amazing the stock LS1 is that it actally needs that much stall. Now throw a big lumpy cam into the equation and it still works well but more stall would produce even better results.
As great as a looser converter is, w/o the proper gear ratio you'll never MAX OUT the combination. You might get close but it won't be maxed out.
So a loose conveter backed up by steeper gears will provide the best results. And an addititonal benefit of the gears is that it makes the converter "feel" less loose on the street when pulling away from a stop light. It also helps keep the tranny fluid temps from getting as hot because the steeper gears get the car moving with less converter slipage. So the streetabilty of the combination will improve but at the cost of lower gas mileage.
It's the combination of parts that makes or breaks a set-up. A big cam can't do it all by itself. If the combination is wrong for the big cam then it can actually perform worse than a smaller cam that's more in tune with lesser stall and gears, as in your set-up Blk.
BLK- The most important thing in drag racing, after the 60', is getting into top gear as quickly as possible. You want to spend as much time as possible in the top gear (1 to 1 ratio gear) of your tranny, 3rd gear for the A4. That's when you get the most out of the area under the curve. This is not an absolute but it's the rule 95% of the time. I say this because there once was a NHRA Stock Eliminator record setting 86 or 87 Turbo Regal that was running 5.13 gears and finishing the 1/4 at the top of 4th gear with his 200 4R tranny.
The time spent in 1st and 2nd gears with our A4s is no where near as important as the time spent in 3rd. With the proper rear end gears you'll spend 1/2 to 2/3 of the time spent to cover the 1/4 mile in 3rd gear. That's when you'll get the quickest elapsed times.
A loose converter is a blessing to the LS1. W/O a doubt it's far more important than gears. The Yank PT 4400 has proven to be the best even on bolt on cars, with engines where HP peaks around 57-5800 RPM. Stop and think about how loose a 4400 stall is for a second and how amazing the stock LS1 is that it actally needs that much stall. Now throw a big lumpy cam into the equation and it still works well but more stall would produce even better results.
As great as a looser converter is, w/o the proper gear ratio you'll never MAX OUT the combination. You might get close but it won't be maxed out.
So a loose conveter backed up by steeper gears will provide the best results. And an addititonal benefit of the gears is that it makes the converter "feel" less loose on the street when pulling away from a stop light. It also helps keep the tranny fluid temps from getting as hot because the steeper gears get the car moving with less converter slipage. So the streetabilty of the combination will improve but at the cost of lower gas mileage.
It's the combination of parts that makes or breaks a set-up. A big cam can't do it all by itself. If the combination is wrong for the big cam then it can actually perform worse than a smaller cam that's more in tune with lesser stall and gears, as in your set-up Blk.
06-23-2006, 11:23 PM
#131
I daily drive a 4400 stall with 2.73s (yes I know, gears are coming in the next month). It's a Fuddle until the tranny goes, then she'll see a Yank. I imagine the Fuddle is much more loose than the Yank is making it more rough on the street. However, after about a week I got used to it and I actually enjoy driving it more than I did before. The only problem is, if I have one of my friends act as my DD (the other one, NOT daily driver) on Friday or Saturday night they are absolutely positive something is horribly wrong with my tranny. There was also a post in the auto tranny section (not sure why it was in the TRANSMISSION section) about how well 4.10s behaved as far as HW mpg went. Check it out
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/530131-mpg-4-10-s-a4-you-guys-questions.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/530131-mpg-4-10-s-a4-you-guys-questions.html
