ringram

Yeah but what comes up over and over is for all round use a cam in the mid 22x range works well, especially with good lift and tight lobes.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

The problem with most users on this board is that they choose a cam with too much duration and too wide of an LSA. Ideally, our motors work best with an LSA between 109-111. Lower compression motors (cam-only) work better with 109-110LSA where high compression motors work better with 1110-111LSA. The motor will make more power down low and up high with the LSA that it needs.

Even with a high stall converter, a properly chosen cam (narrower LSA and smaller duration) will walk all over the typical wide LSA cam so popular on this board. Why? It's called area under the curve. When you have more torque, you'll have more hp too. With more area under the curve, the converter will flash higher, giving you a stronger 60' time and it will have higher shift extension rpm because of the added hp in the 5000-5500 rpm range.

If you want a cam that would beat the MS4, just go about 4 degrees smaller in duration, then narrow the LSA around 2 degrees, then make sure your overlap is centered over TDC or even biased somewhat to the intake side. This cam will make more area under the curve and better topend because of superior valve events, higher DCR and better positioning of overlap.

JZ'sTA

iTrader: (23)

Also please realize there are 100's of different cams in our cars for a reason, everyone has a different goal/setup they would like.
There is no need to compair Pat's cam to the MS4 it is common since that the MS4 (with the proper setup) will make more power above 6000 RPMS without a problem then his 224/228 cam (with the proper setup)
Again the 2 cams are for 2 different drivers, and have no business being compaired side by side.
Pat decited his goals and based his cam choice on his goals. His cam was different and was similar to the Thunder Racing T rak cam he had ran before.
That dosen't mean this is the best cam of all time, or that this cam is better then everyother cam for every different setup. However it is probally the best cam for HIS setup and goals.

As far as what someone had said earlier about the TC and this cam being better for a Auto. That is not correct. While a 6 speed car would like this cam a auto even with a large 4000+ stall will also do very well with Pats cam.

For those that need proof, look at Pats dyno compairision. The 234/238 cam made more peak power as did the T rak but not by much. So it is easy to see there are other cams that have the potential to make more peak power, again not what Pat was after.

shudog

iTrader: (3)

A 110 LSA and it idles smooth???!!!! C'mon. Obviously we have different ideas of what a smooth idle consists of.

JZ'sTA

iTrader: (23)

Also please realize there are 100's of different cams in our cars for a reason, everyone has a different goal/setup they would like.
There is no need to compair Pat's cam to the MS4 it is common since that the MS4 (with the proper setup) will make more power above 6000 RPMS without a problem then his 224/228 cam (with the proper setup)
Again the 2 cams are for 2 different drivers, and have no business being compaired side by side.
Pat decited his goals and based his cam choice on his goals. His cam was different and was similar to the Thunder Racing T rak cam he had ran before.
That dosen't mean this is the best cam of all time, or that this cam is better then everyother cam for every different setup. However it is probally the best cam for HIS setup and goals.

As far as what someone had said earlier about the TC and this cam being better for a Auto. That is not correct. While a 6 speed car would like this cam a auto even with a large 4000+ stall will also do very well with Pats cam.

For those that need proof, look at Pats dyno compairision. The 234/238 cam made more peak power as did the T rak but not by much. So it is easy to see there are other cams that have the potential to make more peak power, again not what Pat was after.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

Ideally, you want your DCR close to 8.5:1 (or above) for best torque on pump gas. This is very hard to achieve with a low SCR cam-only setup. With stock heads, the MS4 is going to have 7.5-7.6:1 DCR (based on 111LSA with +2 or +4 advance). My cam will give 8.0:1 DCR cam-only.

For best area under the curve and superior top-end with the LS6 or FAST intake, you want to limit your IVC to around 46 degrees ABDC at .050", get your DCR as high as you can, then get your overlap centered over TDC or slightly biased to the intake side (for superior top-end).

235/240 .646/.600 109LSA (+1)

The DCR is 2 tenths higher than the MS4 and overlap is centered over TDC giving it superior top-end. If TSP were to try this out, they'd have a real winner on their hands.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

Obviously, you don't understand overlap and its affect on idle quality.

My 224/228 110LSA cam has 6 degrees of overlap at .050".

A 234/238 114LSA cam has 8 degrees of overlap at .050" and would idle worse.

2 degrees more overlap makes for poorer idle. In this case 110LSA cam idles smoother than a 114LSA cam. Make sense?

JZ'sTA

iTrader: (23)

No you just have different experience with cars and cams in LS1's. A 110 LSA with the proper tune can idle and drive very nicely.
Your basing your facts on a 110LSA on other peoples oponions and Pat is basing his facts on what he has seen first hand.
The LSA will have a effect on idle but a 110 dosen't mean the cam is a bad driveability cam. There is a lot more to it then LSA, its called overlap, read up on it sometime and then you can understand how a 110LSA can idle very well.

DavidNJ

Patrick is absolutely correct, throwing away compression is throwing away HP.

However, the size is also dependent on what your heads flow and the engine speed range. It is my understanding that some people have had good power--but marginal driveablity--with large cams with stock intake, tb, and heads. Some older, OEM style head big blocks also end up with very large cams.

Patrick has a strong free flowing system. He also has a head with well designed combustion chamber. And he has the compression to prove it! Then he leveraged the high lift LSK lobes. In his testing, a larger cam added negligable (~1%) peak hp, with lower power nearly everywhere else.

What was the setup the MS4 was designed for and tested--comparatively--on?

xxtheonlyxx

iTrader: (22)

I'm a newb at this, but it really is apples to oranges. Everything we do with our cars is like putting a puzzle together. We all want something different. Some people want to drag race, some want to "brag" race... and some want to be able to daily drive our investments to WalMart to pick up beer (and maybe destroy a ricer on the way). Patrick G made that to help people like me make a better decision without regreting the outcome. He didnt cause people to go buy the cam, he helped them to stop second guessing themselves. I also have to thank Predator Z for helping me They definitely know their stuff!

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

It wasnt proof that one was better than the other. It was meant as proof as to what the smaler cam can do.

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

What I meant was it owns it in down low and for overall driving. I damn sure know that the MS4 or MS3 will outperform it at the drag strip especially with a stall and gears that can keep it in that great powerband. Relax man, I know what the magic stick can do. For those who like the drivability of the smaller cam, its awesome because it makes good peak numbers and makes great power down low.

PREDATOR-Z

You guys crack me up when you say "this cam will blow away this cam",
Guys, the cam doesn't drag on its own, it is part of an overall combo.
Gimme Patrick's car against a cam only MS4 and I will wipe the **** out of that MS4 car.(You don't mind 5K+ clutch dumps do you Patrick )
Combo, combo, combo.

The MS4 has much more potential in the PROPER combo at the track. (meaning the right supporting mods, SCR, DCR etc......)

Xtnct00WS6

iTrader: (8)

Good info to know. I didn't know that.

Aside from overlap, I'm curious why you chose a traditional split as apposed to a reverse like a 230/226. Also how did you come up with the exact lift amount you ended up with? Lobe choice is the obvious answer, but why more exhaust lift than intake? Sorry if you've covered this already.

I'm personally looking at having thunder grind a 230/226 111 +0 lsa with around .6 and .605 lift. It still has 6 degrees of overlap, a nice tight lsa, and is still comparatively small to a lot of other cams. What do you think? Sorry for the slight hyhack

ninobrn99

iTrader: (8)

agreed. However, as important as a cam is, you dont build your car based on a cam. Build your motor, get a good/great set of heads and according to that, spec your cam. At least thats how I see it. If its cam only, then find whatever is going to meet your goals.

Street Lethal

Period, end of discussion...

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

I chose a traditional split for several reasons:
1. It gave me the valve events I needed (biggest reason of all).
2. My heads/intake now flow better than my exhaust (not always the case cam-only).
3. It was very important that my overlap be biased toward the intake side of TDC so my motor would carry good power past peak hp rpm. A reverse split will tend to bias your overlap to the exhaust side of TDC which will make your motor run out of breath faster after peak power.

I chose the higher-lift LSK lobes to give me more valve curtain area under the curve which would take advantage of the excellent high-lift airflow of my AFR heads.

If you are running excellent exhaust with stock heads and LS6 intake, reverse split cams make a lot of sense. In my case however, the lobes I chose made sense for my application.

PREDATOR-Z

Agreed in general, but being who I am, I did just that. I had heads and cam and I built my shortblock to complement that. $$ were an issue and I just couldn't afford 402 + cam + heads. I figured if not satisfied, I can just get different heads in the future and spec my own cam.
Between us, I'm curious as to how the 232/234 with 5.3L PRC will react to 370 cubes and high SCR/DCR.
One thing for sure, I kinda expect that finally the TORQUER will live up to its name. meaning "produce some torque."

ninobrn99

iTrader: (8)

Well i have to contridict myself because I did the same thing, but know I will be getting better heads and will do a different cam when that time comes. I guess we were in the same boat, just couldnt see eachother Id really like to compare results to just see similarites if any.

PREDATOR-Z

I need a couple of weeks, but weather is 120+ F right now so the numbers will not be as good as in October whhen it cools down a little.
Right now, I just want to finish it, save for another tranny (still wainting to see how transbrakes are holding up in 4L60E), and just tune it + beak it in nicely.