Feedback on Patrick G's Torquer cam.
#81
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Originally Posted by Gearhead1
...isn't the HP calculated from the torque reading?
#82
Originally Posted by Street Lethal
Absolutely. You gotta have torque to make calculated horsepower at a certain rpm. Increasing torque, regardless of the RPM, increases horsepower. Horsepower is nothing more than a calculated power value for Torque at a given rpm.
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Originally Posted by Gearhead1
Yes, but isn't the HP calculated from the torque reading?? I'm not arguing, just trying to understand.
Hijack off. Thanks Pat, I now believe I do not have valvetrain problems as well.
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Originally Posted by JonCR96Z
I beleive this is what happens with a bad tach connection. If you'll look at my graph you'll notice a few spots where there is no info at all.
edit: nevermind, you can't really see the graph that well
edit: nevermind, you can't really see the graph that well
#87
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Originally Posted by cantdrv65
No, not on a dynojet. Torque is actually back calculated from the HP reading.... My understanding is you can totally disconnect the tach wire and still get an accurate HP number. It measures horsepower directly by the acceleration of a known mass (the drum).
Hijack off. Thanks Pat, I now believe I do not have valvetrain problems as well.
Hijack off. Thanks Pat, I now believe I do not have valvetrain problems as well.
HP= torque x rpm / 5252
An inertia dyno like a Dyno Jet is just using a static weight to load the engine.
It is for this very fact that some cars produce little torque but high bhp.
Example:
300lb ft @ 3000rpm would be 171bhp
200lb ft @ 6000rpm would be 229bhp
Less torque but more power.
Think of HP as an expression of torque. And the 'B' stands for Brake. Because for automotive use we use Brake devices to derive torque, whether they are static brakes like an inertia dyno or variable brakes such as a load bearing dyno.
#88
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Originally Posted by Patrick G
If you want a cam that would beat the MS4, just go about 4 degrees smaller in duration, then narrow the LSA around 2 degrees, then make sure your overlap is centered over TDC or even biased somewhat to the intake side. This cam will make more area under the curve and better topend because of superior valve events, higher DCR and better positioning of overlap.
We've done engine dyno testing back to back on tons of different combinations including torquer 3 on a 110, ms4s on a 111, ms3s on a 113, 235/238 camshaft on a 110.
We offer MS4 camshafts on a 110, but for p/v issues it's only available to customers with cut pistons.
Keep in mind guys there's a difference between reading posts & using calculators & actually putting something on a engine dyno. Some of these camshaft theories are just like the guys thinking the small runner heads or the better flowing head will always make more power. That's not always the case, extensive testing is needed to determine what's best.
It's easy to be a bench theory dyno racer, it's something completely different to actually put up & dyno compare camshafts on a engine dyno.
Moving the lobe seperations around 1 degree or taking 2 degrees of duration out of a camshaft doesn't equate to tons of power in either direction.
What camshaft is best for one car might not be the camshaft that's best for the next car.
Torquer 3 camshaft 231/234 110+1 camshaft did make more low end power than the MS4, but with a healthy gear car & some healthy stall I think the MS4 will out run it at the drag strip.
I'm putting together my heads cam car right now & I'll test out the MS4, Torquer 3 & the 235/238 camshaft in the same car. Of course we won't be able to see sameday results with this method, but it will still be very interesting to see the results!
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2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
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Jason
Co-Owner, Texas Speed & Performance, Ltd.
2005 Twin Turbo C6
404cid Stroker, 67mm Twins
994rwhp/902lb ft @ 22 psi (mustang dyno) www.Texas-Speed.com
Last edited by Jason 98 TA; 06-28-2006 at 10:03 AM.
#89
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Originally Posted by Jason 98 TA
Actually that is incorrect. We tried a camshaft that was exactly 4 degrees smaller on both sides & on a 110+1. That camshaft did make 2 or 3 ft lb down low, but it gives it up on top end power by a solid 5-7hp & lb ft.
235/240 .646/.609 109LSA +1 (LSK/XE-R)
Jason, you should try this cam. It should match the MS4 upstairs while having a torque advantage in the mid-range. The key is higher DCR and better placement of overlap (intake-biased). Try it, you might like it!
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2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
#91
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at least TSP is actuly going out and testing, and trying to put out the best product that they can make. I'll comend you for that, cause it seems like you guys are really trying to make a product that the customer wants.
Justin
Justin
#92
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Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
An inertia dyno like a Dyno Jet is just using a static weight to load the engine.
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Originally Posted by ThirdGenLS1
at least TSP is actuly going out and testing, and trying to put out the best product that they can make. I'll comend you for that, cause it seems like you guys are really trying to make a product that the customer wants.
Justin
Justin
#94
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Many vendor's do this. TR, Cartek, MTI, TSP, Futural, LG, all have cams that they have tested the hell out of.
Also the tach dosen't need to be hooked up on a dynojet. It wont give a TQ reading but will still give a HP reading.
We have one out back and have had to do this a few times when we couldn't get a good signal no matter what.
Also the tach dosen't need to be hooked up on a dynojet. It wont give a TQ reading but will still give a HP reading.
We have one out back and have had to do this a few times when we couldn't get a good signal no matter what.
#95
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Originally Posted by Patrick G
235/240 .646/.609 109LSA +1 (LSK/XE-R)
Holy **** I have this exact cam siting here for a customer.
Were doing it in a cam only Z06. (2003)
I will have to post the numbers once its done which wont be for a month or so however.
I think the cam is acturally a 110+1LSA, but close enough.
#96
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Originally Posted by cantdrv65
Yep thats exactly what I said. It also measures the rpm of the drum, hence no tach wire needed. Comprende?
#97
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Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Yeah buy HP is an expression of torque at speed (rpm) that's the whole point of it.
HP= torque x rpm / 5252
Think of HP as an expression of torque. And the 'B' stands for Brake. Because for automotive use we use Brake devices to derive torque, whether they are static brakes like an inertia dyno or variable brakes such as a load bearing dyno.
HP= torque x rpm / 5252
Think of HP as an expression of torque. And the 'B' stands for Brake. Because for automotive use we use Brake devices to derive torque, whether they are static brakes like an inertia dyno or variable brakes such as a load bearing dyno.
hp = (tq x rpm) / 5252
tq = (hp x 5252) / rpm
rpm = (hp x 5252) / tq
#98
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Originally Posted by TroubledWine3
...torque is also an expression of horsepower.
#99
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Originally Posted by ThirdGenLS1
at least TSP is actuly going out and testing, and trying to put out the best product that they can make. I'll comend you for that, cause it seems like you guys are really trying to make a product that the customer wants.
Justin
Justin
It would boggle your mind how many cam swaps I've done over the years. I always dynoed every new combination and always tested it at the strip as well. I've been cam swapping since early '99 on these motors. I lost count after 20 of my own personal cam swaps (and that's not counting the dozens of swaps I've done with friends cars).
What I've found is that cam-only LS1s tend to like LSAs in the 109-110 range. Just look at the T-Rex and how well it does. Think about it...it's not the duration alone that makes it so killer...it's the LSA (109-110). If duration alone was king, the wide LSA HPE S cam would hold all the cam-only titles.
As you increase static compression, you can ease off LSA a tad. That's why heads/cam motors with 11-11.5:1 SCR seem to like 110-111LSA best. As you increase displacement, the valve area per displacement begins to diminish, making the motor more sensitve to overlap. More is better in this case. Again, 109-111LSA tends to work best with 402-450 CID LS1s.
Just look at the gains TSP has made in the past months. They've taken their wide LSA cams and narrowed them and the results have been very positve. Coincidence? No, it's just that with further testing, they too have been finding out what works and what doesn't. So before you poo-poo my theories, just remember, they're not taken from a spreadsheet or program, but from track experience over the past 7 years messing only with LS1s.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
#100
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Originally Posted by TroubledWine3
You seem like a pretty smart dude
Originally Posted by TroubledWine3
so I think you are smart enough to realize that torque is also an expression of horsepower. You can calculate torque from horsepower the same way you can calculate horsepower from torque. A dynojet calculates horsepower and back-calculates torque.
hp = (tq x rpm) / 5252
tq = (hp x 5252) / rpm
rpm = (hp x 5252) / tq
hp = (tq x rpm) / 5252
tq = (hp x 5252) / rpm
rpm = (hp x 5252) / tq
a * 1.23 = b
or
b / 1.23 = a
However Horse Power does have a foundry as dictated by James Watt for his steam engines.
Definition of horsepower for engines is the one originally proposed by James Watt in 1782. Under this system, one horsepower is defined as:
1 hp = 33,000 ft·lbf·min−1 = exactly 0.74569987158227022 kW
So although maths allows us the derive one from the other it doesn't mean that they are both expressions of the other.
The term "horsepower" was invented by James Watt to help market his improved steam engine. He had previously agreed to take royalties of one third of the savings in coal from the older Newcomen steam engines[5]. This royalty scheme did not work with customers who did not have existing steam engines but used horses instead. Watt determined that a horse could turn a mill wheel 144 times in an hour (or 2.4 times a minute). The wheel was 12 feet in radius, thus in a minute the horse travelled 2.4 × 2π × 12 feet. Watt judged that the horse could pull with a force of 180 pounds (just assuming that the measurements of mass were equivalent to measurements of force in pounds-force, which were not well-defined units at the time). So:
This was rounded to an even 33,000 ft·lbf/min[6].
Others recount that Watt determined that a pony could lift an average 220 pounds 100 feet (30 m) per minute over a four-hour working shift. Watt then judged a horse was 50% more powerful than a pony and thus arrived at the 33,000 ft·lbf/min figure[7].
Engineering in History recounts that John Smeaton initially estimated that a horse could produce 22,916 foot-pounds per minute. John Desaguliers increased that to 27,500 foot-pounds per minute. "Watt found by experiment in 1782 that a 'brewery horse' was able to produce 32,400 foot-pounds per minute". James Watt and Matthew Boulton standardized that figure at 33,000 the next year[8].
Put into perspective, a healthy human can sustain about 0.1 horsepower, and trained athletes can manage up to about 0.3 horsepower for a period of several hours. Most observers familiar with horses and their capabilities estimate that Watt was either a bit optimistic or intended to underpromise and overdeliver; few horses can maintain that effort for long. Regardless, comparison to a horse proved to be an enduring marketing tool.
This was rounded to an even 33,000 ft·lbf/min[6].
Others recount that Watt determined that a pony could lift an average 220 pounds 100 feet (30 m) per minute over a four-hour working shift. Watt then judged a horse was 50% more powerful than a pony and thus arrived at the 33,000 ft·lbf/min figure[7].
Engineering in History recounts that John Smeaton initially estimated that a horse could produce 22,916 foot-pounds per minute. John Desaguliers increased that to 27,500 foot-pounds per minute. "Watt found by experiment in 1782 that a 'brewery horse' was able to produce 32,400 foot-pounds per minute". James Watt and Matthew Boulton standardized that figure at 33,000 the next year[8].
Put into perspective, a healthy human can sustain about 0.1 horsepower, and trained athletes can manage up to about 0.3 horsepower for a period of several hours. Most observers familiar with horses and their capabilities estimate that Watt was either a bit optimistic or intended to underpromise and overdeliver; few horses can maintain that effort for long. Regardless, comparison to a horse proved to be an enduring marketing tool.
Last edited by 300bhp/ton; 06-28-2006 at 06:15 PM.