Feedback on Patrick G's Torquer cam.
You are right, too, but the point I was trying to make is that a Dynojet does not calculate torque to get horsepower, it calculates horsepower and back-calculates torque.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Originally Posted by Patrick G
Yes, I'm anxiously awaiting LG Motorsports to make their LONG tube headers (with 32" primaries and high velocity merge) with x-pipe duals available for the F-Bodies. They should be available by fall. Then us F-body enthusiasts will have just as good of an exhaust as the Corvette crowd. That mod alone would be worth at least 10-15 in rwhp/tq over my current setup, maybe more.
erik
Originally Posted by chevynation
real quick.. so you feel like the kooks are holding you up? i thought they were the cream of crop
erik
erik
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 647
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Don't forget cranes lobes too. They have been in chevy scene longer than comp, and they build their lobes softer for a reason. They are capable of higher RPM before float, unless you have house bricks for springs. Mated to their high-lift rockers, they equal or better comps faster lobes. They have more curtain area under 0.200 and with their rockers, mid-lift is improved to near XE-R levels. Its all about combo and stability over the whole valvetrain.
Everything old will be new again one day. Till then, I'll just keep passing you down the quarter...
Everything old will be new again one day. Till then, I'll just keep passing you down the quarter...
TECH Resident
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 848
Likes: 1
From: Working in the shop 24/7
Originally Posted by Patrick G
That's a good point. Many companies do the same thing including Thunder Racing.
It would boggle your mind how many cam swaps I've done over the years. I always dynoed every new combination and always tested it at the strip as well. I've been cam swapping since early '99 on these motors. I lost count after 20 of my own personal cam swaps (and that's not counting the dozens of swaps I've done with friends cars).
What I've found is that cam-only LS1s tend to like LSAs in the 109-110 range. Just look at the T-Rex and how well it does. Think about it...it's not the duration alone that makes it so killer...it's the LSA (109-110). If duration alone was king, the wide LSA HPE S cam would hold all the cam-only titles.
As you increase static compression, you can ease off LSA a tad. That's why heads/cam motors with 11-11.5:1 SCR seem to like 110-111LSA best. As you increase displacement, the valve area per displacement begins to diminish, making the motor more sensitve to overlap. More is better in this case. Again, 109-111LSA tends to work best with 402-450 CID LS1s.
Just look at the gains TSP has made in the past months. They've taken their wide LSA cams and narrowed them and the results have been very positve. Coincidence? No, it's just that with further testing, they too have been finding out what works and what doesn't. So before you poo-poo my theories, just remember, they're not taken from a spreadsheet or program, but from track experience over the past 7 years messing only with LS1s.
It would boggle your mind how many cam swaps I've done over the years. I always dynoed every new combination and always tested it at the strip as well. I've been cam swapping since early '99 on these motors. I lost count after 20 of my own personal cam swaps (and that's not counting the dozens of swaps I've done with friends cars).
What I've found is that cam-only LS1s tend to like LSAs in the 109-110 range. Just look at the T-Rex and how well it does. Think about it...it's not the duration alone that makes it so killer...it's the LSA (109-110). If duration alone was king, the wide LSA HPE S cam would hold all the cam-only titles.
As you increase static compression, you can ease off LSA a tad. That's why heads/cam motors with 11-11.5:1 SCR seem to like 110-111LSA best. As you increase displacement, the valve area per displacement begins to diminish, making the motor more sensitve to overlap. More is better in this case. Again, 109-111LSA tends to work best with 402-450 CID LS1s.
Just look at the gains TSP has made in the past months. They've taken their wide LSA cams and narrowed them and the results have been very positve. Coincidence? No, it's just that with further testing, they too have been finding out what works and what doesn't. So before you poo-poo my theories, just remember, they're not taken from a spreadsheet or program, but from track experience over the past 7 years messing only with LS1s.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=119
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=189
Originally Posted by MNR-0
Don't forget cranes lobes too. They have been in chevy scene longer than comp, and they build their lobes softer for a reason. They are capable of higher RPM before float, unless you have house bricks for springs. Mated to their high-lift rockers, they equal or better comps faster lobes. They have more curtain area under 0.200 and with their rockers, mid-lift is improved to near XE-R levels. Its all about combo and stability over the whole valvetrain.
Everything old will be new again one day. Till then, I'll just keep passing you down the quarter...
Everything old will be new again one day. Till then, I'll just keep passing you down the quarter...
Originally Posted by Patrick G
235/240 .646/.609 109LSA +1 (LSK/XE-R)
Looking forward to see the results on this.
235/240 .646/.609 109LSA +1 (LSK/XE-R)
Originally Posted by JZ'sTA
Holy **** I have this exact cam siting here for a customer.
Were doing it in a cam only Z06. (2003)
I will have to post the numbers once its done which wont be for a month or so however.
I think the cam is acturally a 110+1LSA, but close enough.
Were doing it in a cam only Z06. (2003)
I will have to post the numbers once its done which wont be for a month or so however.
I think the cam is acturally a 110+1LSA, but close enough.
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Launching!
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: Seoul, Korea
Originally Posted by Patrick G
Kooks look as good as new. The advantage of the LG headers would be longer primary tubes, a high velocity merge collector, and true duals matched to it. The C5 headers have a 10-15 lb ft of tq advantage over the next nearest competitor so I figured they would have a big advantage on an F-body.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 647
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Originally Posted by JZ'sTA
Yeah thats why we have so many fast cars with crane cams in the LS1 world. Comps lobes eat crane's any day of the week.
Originally Posted by Patrick G
What I've found is that cam-only LS1s tend to like LSAs in the 109-110 range.
Originally Posted by black_knight
I thought that LSA was a way of adjusting VE's, not a "thing" that LS1's could "like" in-and-of itself.
For the record, a stock displacement, naturally aspirated LS1 running an LS6 or FAST intake tends to make most area under the curve when they run an intake valve closing point of around 44-46 degrees ABDC at .050". After you go past 46 degrees, there seems to be diminishing returns (as you begin fighting the tuned runner length of the intake manifold). Best volumetric efficiency comes when you don't fight the intake.
Stock displacement LS1s seem to make best area under the curve with dynamic compression at or above 8.5:1. To achieve an IVC of 44-46 degrees and elevate the DCR to 8.5:1, it usually takes narrowing the LSA of the cam into the 109-110 range. This is why I made the general statement about LSA. The specific valve events are what you strive for. The LSA is just a by-product of hitting those correct VEs. Overlap is another issue in itself. Typically, you'll want to have your overlap centered over TDC or biased to the intake side of TDC. This will allow you to pull good rpm past peak power. Again, this is difficult to achieve when advancing the cam too much. A narrower LSA cam with little to no advance makes this more possible.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
Originally Posted by Patrick G
For the record, a stock displacement, naturally aspirated LS1 running an LS6 or FAST intake tends to make most area under the curve when they run an intake valve closing point of around 44-46 degrees ABDC at .050". After you go past 46 degrees, there seems to be diminishing returns (as you begin fighting the tuned runner length of the intake manifold). Best volumetric efficiency comes when you don't fight the intake.
Originally Posted by ls1muscle
Originally Posted by Patrick G
235/240 .646/.609 109LSA +1 (LSK/XE-R)
Looking forward to see the results on this.
235/240 .646/.609 109LSA +1 (LSK/XE-R)
Looking forward to see the results on this.
I skipped the last 3 pages of this thread, but I remember I posted in this thread in the beginning and just wanted to post again since I finally got my car into Speed, Inc. last week.
Ended up with 421rwhp @ 6150rpm and 399.98rwtq @ 4900rpm (friend won't let me say I got 400.00, lol). Not terrible, its about what I expected actually. I had hoped for a bit more, but expected about 420. A little over 340tq at 3000rpm, HP curve is almost dead linear. AFR is a hair under 13.0 from 4200ish to 5700ish. He had my car done in 3 dyno pulls, so I'm sure there is a bit more power to be had out of the tune, and I'm sure even more with a better exhaust (Magnaflow cat-back) and a better intake (LS6/ported TB). Weather was 93*F, 29.28in-Hg, 8% humidity, SAE correction was 1.02
I'm perfectly happy with the setup, does exactly what I want. Should be able to trap around 120 or so I imagine. I'll be heading to the track next Friday after work I believe.
Mods: "Stage 2" heads (unknown shop) with Manley 2.02/1.575 valves, 11.1:1 CR (flow very similarly to Patrick G's heads), Patriot Gold springs, cam specced to 224/228.6 with 110.1* LSA and .641/.646 lift, LS6 intake, ported TB, 30# SVOs, Pacesetter headers w/ TSP ORY, Magnaflow c/b, SLP Underdrive pulley, MTI lid, and full accessories (minus A/C at the time).
Car has a freshly rebuilt T-56 and Spec 3 clutch with a stock 3.42 rear.
Ended up with 421rwhp @ 6150rpm and 399.98rwtq @ 4900rpm (friend won't let me say I got 400.00, lol). Not terrible, its about what I expected actually. I had hoped for a bit more, but expected about 420. A little over 340tq at 3000rpm, HP curve is almost dead linear. AFR is a hair under 13.0 from 4200ish to 5700ish. He had my car done in 3 dyno pulls, so I'm sure there is a bit more power to be had out of the tune, and I'm sure even more with a better exhaust (Magnaflow cat-back) and a better intake (LS6/ported TB). Weather was 93*F, 29.28in-Hg, 8% humidity, SAE correction was 1.02
I'm perfectly happy with the setup, does exactly what I want. Should be able to trap around 120 or so I imagine. I'll be heading to the track next Friday after work I believe.
Mods: "Stage 2" heads (unknown shop) with Manley 2.02/1.575 valves, 11.1:1 CR (flow very similarly to Patrick G's heads), Patriot Gold springs, cam specced to 224/228.6 with 110.1* LSA and .641/.646 lift, LS6 intake, ported TB, 30# SVOs, Pacesetter headers w/ TSP ORY, Magnaflow c/b, SLP Underdrive pulley, MTI lid, and full accessories (minus A/C at the time).
Car has a freshly rebuilt T-56 and Spec 3 clutch with a stock 3.42 rear.
