gmht test- ms4 and ms4 stage1 dyno
10-27-2006, 10:20 AM
#21
LS1Tech Premium Sponsor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bjamick
i would like to see what this setup will put to the wheels on an A4 and the M6.
Yeah, that's where we got the gains on the website. There "should" be a ton of MS4 only setups running around as many as we've sent out. Hopefully guys will start posting up the results when they get them installed
Brian
__________________
01 NBM Z28- A4 w/3.23s, TSP Black Lid, Hooker Catback, Pacesetter Headers w/ORY, ASP Pulley, Ported Throttle Body, TSP Torq. v3(231/234) Camshaft, TCI 4400, PRC Stg 1 Heads
Texas Speed & Performance
www.texas-speed.com
(806) 866-0734
01 NBM Z28- A4 w/3.23s, TSP Black Lid, Hooker Catback, Pacesetter Headers w/ORY, ASP Pulley, Ported Throttle Body, TSP Torq. v3(231/234) Camshaft, TCI 4400, PRC Stg 1 Heads
Texas Speed & Performance
www.texas-speed.com
(806) 866-0734
10-27-2006, 04:34 PM
#22
TECH Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: south jersey
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by The Alchemist
Thanks for posting the info.
I take from this that the fast 90/90 setup is only benneficial from 4500 rpm and above. Considering I spend 99.9% of my time below that, I'm happy to stick with the stock ls6 intake.
Now if I ever decide to make my car a quarter mile queen, and spend lots of time from 4500-6500, then I'll change intakes, but until then, low end torque is where it's at.
I take from this that the fast 90/90 setup is only benneficial from 4500 rpm and above. Considering I spend 99.9% of my time below that, I'm happy to stick with the stock ls6 intake.
Now if I ever decide to make my car a quarter mile queen, and spend lots of time from 4500-6500, then I'll change intakes, but until then, low end torque is where it's at.
10-27-2006, 07:13 PM
#24
Originally Posted by 00454sscamaro
yeah on a cam only setup id stick with the ls6, going with these stage 1 heads and ms4 cam the fast 90 barley gives up any to the ls6 (1- 2hp ) at a few spots and makes alot more everywhere else. or in other words the minimal loss at a few rpm points is more then made up for by the amount it outshines the ls6 imo.
If the intake gave you 10hp when you're down around 350rwhp...that's a more significant number....but as a topper on 440rwhp? not worth it IMO.
10-28-2006, 01:04 AM
#25
TECH Senior Member
Originally Posted by Billdog350
Yes, but the question is: Is a FAST 90/90 worth the $ for the extra few hp? At this point i'm hearing like ~5-10 rwhp for $500+ OVER the Ls6. Better yet, is 440 vs 450hp going to make a difference at the strip? Put that $ towards drag radials, gears, nitrous, etc but I can't see 440 vs 450 rwhp being worth $500+.
If the intake gave you 10hp when you're down around 350rwhp...that's a more significant number....but as a topper on 440rwhp? not worth it IMO.
If the intake gave you 10hp when you're down around 350rwhp...that's a more significant number....but as a topper on 440rwhp? not worth it IMO.
(.1 sec is an eternity as I have won (or lost) many races by .0x sec)
If you have a stock motor and want to add 10rwhp you port your TB.
However once you start reaching max out combos, 10rwhp for 500$ is about right. Expl: AFR heads $2200, good for 40rhp average (that is about $550/10rwhp).
Point is; if you have a stockish bolt on motor and put on 90/90, you are waisting your $$$, but if you are H/C with biggish cam then go for it, it is worth it.
10-28-2006, 03:50 AM
#28
Originally Posted by bjamick
i really would love to get the MS4 but after you get everything you need your at like $1100 for the cam only. thats including pushrods, LS6 ported oil pump, springs, cam, and i would prob buy lifters for the hell of it.
From what I've read, this cam is pretty untouchable (comparison wise)as far as it's performance and driveability...
10-28-2006, 04:10 AM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by DEMONBIRD
Any MS4 GP's coming up? I think it would be a great time for one 
.A friend of mine (female at that) has an LS1 Z and told me she wants me to make her some sick power but fairly good on the street.
I said MS4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bet she will go with the heads also.
Asked if she would notice a power gain and I laughed...
Great article.
Last edited by JUICED96Z; 10-28-2006 at 04:16 AM.
10-28-2006, 07:16 AM
#31
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
10rwhp is worth .1 sec in the 1/4
(.1 sec is an eternity as I have won (or lost) many races by .0x sec)
If you have a stock motor and want to add 10rwhp you port your TB.
However once you start reaching max out combos, 10rwhp for 500$ is about right. Expl: AFR heads $2200, good for 40rhp average (that is about $550/10rwhp).
Point is; if you have a stockish bolt on motor and put on 90/90, you are waisting your $$$, but if you are H/C with biggish cam then go for it, it is worth it.
(.1 sec is an eternity as I have won (or lost) many races by .0x sec)
If you have a stock motor and want to add 10rwhp you port your TB.
However once you start reaching max out combos, 10rwhp for 500$ is about right. Expl: AFR heads $2200, good for 40rhp average (that is about $550/10rwhp).
Point is; if you have a stockish bolt on motor and put on 90/90, you are waisting your $$$, but if you are H/C with biggish cam then go for it, it is worth it.
Plus, a FAST 90/90 combo isn't going to cost you $500. It's closer to $1300. So to gain 10-15 from 5000-6500 rpm isn't worth $1300, especially since I'm still running a 'baby' TR224/224 cam. I say 'baby' when you compare it to these larger, 'streetable' cams these days.
I saw the specs on the MS4 cam, WOW .640 lift is pretty large. I was worried about piston to valve clearance with my .565 lift cam with milled heads, I can't imagine how big of a hole I'd punch into the pistons with that cam. I guess it's say to say that this cam needs to be used with stock heads or heads that haven't been milled any. What about gasket thickness? Can you run a 0.040" cometic with this cam or will you risk hitting the pistons?
10-28-2006, 09:32 AM
#32
11 Second Club
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: MI
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by The Alchemist
If you re-read the numbers, the FAST90/90 combo on the h/c setup only started to make a consistent gain over the ls6 intake at roughly 4500-5000 rpm. As I stated earlier, I don't spend a lot of time in that range on the street as you draw a lot of attention to yourself.
Plus, a FAST 90/90 combo isn't going to cost you $500. It's closer to $1300. So to gain 10-15 from 5000-6500 rpm isn't worth $1300, especially since I'm still running a 'baby' TR224/224 cam. I say 'baby' when you compare it to these larger, 'streetable' cams these days.
I saw the specs on the MS4 cam, WOW .640 lift is pretty large. I was worried about piston to valve clearance with my .565 lift cam with milled heads, I can't imagine how big of a hole I'd punch into the pistons with that cam. I guess it's say to say that this cam needs to be used with stock heads or heads that haven't been milled any. What about gasket thickness? Can you run a 0.040" cometic with this cam or will you risk hitting the pistons?
Plus, a FAST 90/90 combo isn't going to cost you $500. It's closer to $1300. So to gain 10-15 from 5000-6500 rpm isn't worth $1300, especially since I'm still running a 'baby' TR224/224 cam. I say 'baby' when you compare it to these larger, 'streetable' cams these days.
I saw the specs on the MS4 cam, WOW .640 lift is pretty large. I was worried about piston to valve clearance with my .565 lift cam with milled heads, I can't imagine how big of a hole I'd punch into the pistons with that cam. I guess it's say to say that this cam needs to be used with stock heads or heads that haven't been milled any. What about gasket thickness? Can you run a 0.040" cometic with this cam or will you risk hitting the pistons?
Read above, he said no need to flycut with MS4 and PRC stage 1 CNC'ed
10-28-2006, 10:56 AM
#33
TECH Senior Member
Originally Posted by The Alchemist
If you re-read the numbers, the FAST90/90 combo on the h/c setup only started to make a consistent gain over the ls6 intake at roughly 4500-5000 rpm. As I stated earlier, I don't spend a lot of time in that range on the street as you draw a lot of attention to yourself.
Plus, a FAST 90/90 combo isn't going to cost you $500. It's closer to $1300. So to gain 10-15 from 5000-6500 rpm isn't worth $1300, especially since I'm still running a 'baby' TR224/224 cam. I say 'baby' when you compare it to these larger, 'streetable' cams these days.
I saw the specs on the MS4 cam, WOW .640 lift is pretty large. I was worried about piston to valve clearance with my .565 lift cam with milled heads, I can't imagine how big of a hole I'd punch into the pistons with that cam. I guess it's say to say that this cam needs to be used with stock heads or heads that haven't been milled any. What about gasket thickness? Can you run a 0.040" cometic with this cam or will you risk hitting the pistons?
Plus, a FAST 90/90 combo isn't going to cost you $500. It's closer to $1300. So to gain 10-15 from 5000-6500 rpm isn't worth $1300, especially since I'm still running a 'baby' TR224/224 cam. I say 'baby' when you compare it to these larger, 'streetable' cams these days.
I saw the specs on the MS4 cam, WOW .640 lift is pretty large. I was worried about piston to valve clearance with my .565 lift cam with milled heads, I can't imagine how big of a hole I'd punch into the pistons with that cam. I guess it's say to say that this cam needs to be used with stock heads or heads that haven't been milled any. What about gasket thickness? Can you run a 0.040" cometic with this cam or will you risk hitting the pistons?
And BTW, LIFTS have nothing to do with PTV, it is durations and VEs you have to watch for.
Max lift occurs at BDC not TDC where PTV issues occur.
Perhaps you should re-read "anatomy of a cam" by JRP. It is a sticky you know
10-28-2006, 03:14 PM
#34
Ok well im wanting to stay with the stock ls1 heads on my car.. (dont want to spend the 2g's to buy ls6 style) but im wondering if i take them to a machine shop to get them ported and polished to produce bigger flow numbers. will i have a PTV clearance prob then? this is with the MS4 BTW.
10-29-2006, 12:11 AM
#36
TECH Senior Member
Originally Posted by bjamick
Ok well im wanting to stay with the stock ls1 heads on my car.. (dont want to spend the 2g's to buy ls6 style) but im wondering if i take them to a machine shop to get them ported and polished to produce bigger flow numbers. will i have a PTV clearance prob then? this is with the MS4 BTW.
10-29-2006, 01:17 AM
#38
TECH Addict
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Somewhere I Belong
Posts: 2,906
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
Point is; if you have a stockish bolt on motor and put on 90/90, you are waisting your $$$
Originally Posted by Project_SS
Our best before was 11.11 @ 118 mph. This was with a LS6 intake & stock ported TB. After changing to the Fast 90 intake and NW 90 tb we had a previous best of 11.04 @ 120 mph DA +190 and 11.02 @ 120mph DA +1486.
With better weather now and the camaro current weight, setup and constant tune tweaking 10.92 @ 121mph DA - 578
With better weather now and the camaro current weight, setup and constant tune tweaking 10.92 @ 121mph DA - 578
power : weight could be easily noticed in his thread
peace
Last edited by bad95killer; 10-29-2006 at 01:22 AM.
10-29-2006, 09:00 AM
#39
I know that ptv is more about duration than lift, but lift does in fact play a role if the cam accelerate the valve off of the seat quicker than the piston moves away from tdc.
In case you haven't noticed, I'm not a wet-behind the ears newbie who has paid other people to work on his car. Without them listing the 0.06" duration, it's tough to guestimate ptv, but when you look at lift vs. duration vs. lsa, you make an estimate.
I was commenting on more of the fact that my current heads are milled a fair amount, I'm not quite certain how much as the head porter is no longer in business. Right now I'd like to switch cams, or even just go with a tighter quench, but I need to measure the thickness of my heads to see how much was milled from them, that and I need to clay the intake valve to see how much ptv clearance I really have.
Back to my original rant, the FAST 90/90 isn't worth **** at less than 5000 rpm.
In case you haven't noticed, I'm not a wet-behind the ears newbie who has paid other people to work on his car. Without them listing the 0.06" duration, it's tough to guestimate ptv, but when you look at lift vs. duration vs. lsa, you make an estimate.
I was commenting on more of the fact that my current heads are milled a fair amount, I'm not quite certain how much as the head porter is no longer in business. Right now I'd like to switch cams, or even just go with a tighter quench, but I need to measure the thickness of my heads to see how much was milled from them, that and I need to clay the intake valve to see how much ptv clearance I really have.
Back to my original rant, the FAST 90/90 isn't worth **** at less than 5000 rpm.
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
I quoted Billdog and not you.
And BTW, LIFTS have nothing to do with PTV, it is durations and VEs you have to watch for.
Max lift occurs at BDC not TDC where PTV issues occur.
Perhaps you should re-read "anatomy of a cam" by JRP. It is a sticky you know
And BTW, LIFTS have nothing to do with PTV, it is durations and VEs you have to watch for.
Max lift occurs at BDC not TDC where PTV issues occur.
Perhaps you should re-read "anatomy of a cam" by JRP. It is a sticky you know
10-31-2006, 07:40 AM
#40
TECH Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: south jersey
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it does have tourque charts in the magazine also, but as you can see im a lazy typer... i didnt even post the full hp charts, just what i thought were key points in the graphs.. makes me feel better about my money spent on all my new parts. gmhtp =my favorite magazine for the heavy ls coverage. imo the fast is way overpriced for a peice of plastic but not really the worst price for- gains to hp increase, compared to other parts for these cars.. some heads make about 10 more hp then ported ls6's and cost 1g above the ported ls6's or even more(reason ported ls6's are the best bang for the buck imo)... nitrous isnt cheap if you get all the saftey equipment.. switches etc. im at 700$ into my zex(one of the cheapest kits) nitrous kit, still haven bought any saftey equipment, or remote bottle opener etc.+tanks empty and wont last long after its filled. i wanted a individual trottle body intake, but didnt have the time to make one, or the desire to spend 3k on a intake.