Broken MS3 Cam?!?!?!?!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 718
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From: 2 Miles from the Brder Wall, Tx
I had the same problem happen to me 2 days ago 
. I have a MS3 Cam and LS6 Stage 1 heads on my Hawk. I had taken out the complete engine for for an oild pan leak issue. I have done pleanty heads & cam combos to know what to do and wut not to do. Upon fire up, my car idle was fine, then 10 minuets later something blewup 
. I shut her off and took apart my top end of the engine. The exact same thing happend to my heads. But insted of 1 it was both. Even the plate that runs under the rockers broke too on 1 head. I pulled the driverside head and the pistons are fine 
. Pretty sure the passanger side is ok also. Piston 6 and 7 were the ones that broke. I have yet to check my cam at this point but will do tonight. Quik99SS is there any way you can help me out as to see were I should go with this issue?
P.S. I have delt with Brian, Zach, & Trevor at TSP before and they are great company and very helpfull. I wouldnt hesitate to order a new set of heads though them again. Thanks
. I have a MS3 Cam and LS6 Stage 1 heads on my Hawk. I had taken out the complete engine for for an oild pan leak issue. I have done pleanty heads & cam combos to know what to do and wut not to do. Upon fire up, my car idle was fine, then 10 minuets later something blewup . I shut her off and took apart my top end of the engine. The exact same thing happend to my heads. But insted of 1 it was both. Even the plate that runs under the rockers broke too on 1 head. I pulled the driverside head and the pistons are fine . Pretty sure the passanger side is ok also. Piston 6 and 7 were the ones that broke. I have yet to check my cam at this point but will do tonight. Quik99SS is there any way you can help me out as to see were I should go with this issue? P.S. I have delt with Brian, Zach, & Trevor at TSP before and they are great company and very helpfull. I wouldnt hesitate to order a new set of heads though them again. Thanks
Last edited by 01 BERGER CAMARO SS; Nov 9, 2006 at 12:04 PM.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Nov 2006
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Originally Posted by Trevor @ Texas Speed & Perf.
Let me start off by saying that it took eight days for Comp to decide they were going to replace the camshaft for you. I have all of the e-mails from the shop that did your work that shows when the cam left their facility, when it arrived at Comp, and when they decided to warranty the camshaft for you. I asked the shop what cam you wanted to replace it, and they said an MS4. We sent it out the same day from our shop. The defective camshaft arrived at Comp on 10/9, and they decided to warranty it on 10/17.
We use Comp Cams for our cam grinding because of their reputation, accuracy, and ability to make great power. Of the literally thousands of camshafts that we've had ground for us by them, this is the first time we've ever seen this happen. I can tell you that the cylinder head did not break off first, causing an entire lobe of the camshaft to break off. If the cylinder head was untouched and was still assembled as when it came out of the box, there was not a coil bind issue. Our dual valve spring does not coil bind until .720" lift! We've run a LOT of MS4's with the PRC stage 1 LS6 heads with no problems whatsoever. We're always here to help our customers in any way possible. I personally stayed in contact with Comp regarding the situation, and we covered the CNC work, valve job, new valves, etc. to help get you back up and running. All we charged for was the head casting. We tried to help in any way that we could to get you back up and running. The cylinder head did not cause the failure, but we wanted to help you out. We have sold and installed numerous cams since yours was installed in late August/early September with no problems at all. I can say with 100% confidence that the cylinder head did NOT break, causing the lobe of the camshaft to break off.
Feel free to give me a call if you would like to discuss this.
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
We use Comp Cams for our cam grinding because of their reputation, accuracy, and ability to make great power. Of the literally thousands of camshafts that we've had ground for us by them, this is the first time we've ever seen this happen. I can tell you that the cylinder head did not break off first, causing an entire lobe of the camshaft to break off. If the cylinder head was untouched and was still assembled as when it came out of the box, there was not a coil bind issue. Our dual valve spring does not coil bind until .720" lift! We've run a LOT of MS4's with the PRC stage 1 LS6 heads with no problems whatsoever. We're always here to help our customers in any way possible. I personally stayed in contact with Comp regarding the situation, and we covered the CNC work, valve job, new valves, etc. to help get you back up and running. All we charged for was the head casting. We tried to help in any way that we could to get you back up and running. The cylinder head did not cause the failure, but we wanted to help you out. We have sold and installed numerous cams since yours was installed in late August/early September with no problems at all. I can say with 100% confidence that the cylinder head did NOT break, causing the lobe of the camshaft to break off.
Feel free to give me a call if you would like to discuss this.
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
Sure the head didnt break but the cam sure did causing a lot of damage. All you sent me was a bare head so its not like it cost you all that much to make and yet I still had to pay for it. Not to mention the large labor bill that im having to pay for all the damage caused by your cam breaking. This is the main reason im so upset about everything. I think i have a right to be upset for all of this.
Im not really all that upset with TSP.. im more upset with Comp because its their product that broke. TSP did all they could to help the situation. I know this kind of thing never happens but when it does the company needs to take responsibility for it.
Last edited by Quik99SS; Nov 9, 2006 at 03:16 PM.
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 36
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From: LA
Originally Posted by Quik99SS
Im not really all that upset with TSP.. im more upset with Comp because its their product that broke. TSP did all they could to help the situation. I know this kind of thing never happens but when it does the company needs to take responsibility for it.
Again I ask, is there a quality control issue at Comp? Has it been addressed? Does anybody else have one of these "4:30pm on a friday afternoon" cams? A lot of people, including myself, run comp cams. But that makes me a little leary if the problem with the grinding of cams has been addressed.
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 55
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From: Texas
Would you like to allaborate a little more on this subject... NOT THE FIRST TIME.... UHHHH what about Andrew from Abilene Texas, he had your PRC stage 3 LS6 heads on his 408 and same thing happened to him different cam however (heads cracking and breaking under the rocker or around the rocker studs)... So this is the 2nd report of this incident... should I be worried, after all I have your PRC stage 2.5 LS6 heads with the MS3... Not bad mouthing or trying to slam, just wondering what is going on and wondering if I should be worried. I do know you hooked Andrew up and sent him a brand new head to replace the damaged one, so kudo's on standing by your parts.
Originally Posted by Trevor @ Texas Speed & Perf.
Let me start off by saying that it took eight days for Comp to decide they were going to replace the camshaft for you. I have all of the e-mails from the shop that did your work that shows when the cam left their facility, when it arrived at Comp, and when they decided to warranty the camshaft for you. I asked the shop what cam you wanted to replace it, and they said an MS4. We sent it out the same day from our shop. The defective camshaft arrived at Comp on 10/9, and they decided to warranty it on 10/17.
We use Comp Cams for our cam grinding because of their reputation, accuracy, and ability to make great power. Of the literally thousands of camshafts that we've had ground for us by them, this is the first time we've ever seen this happen. I can tell you that the cylinder head did not break off first, causing an entire lobe of the camshaft to break off. If the cylinder head was untouched and was still assembled as when it came out of the box, there was not a coil bind issue. Our dual valve spring does not coil bind until .720" lift! We've run a LOT of MS4's with the PRC stage 1 LS6 heads with no problems whatsoever. We're always here to help our customers in any way possible. I personally stayed in contact with Comp regarding the situation, and we covered the CNC work, valve job, new valves, etc. to help get you back up and running. All we charged for was the head casting. We tried to help in any way that we could to get you back up and running. The cylinder head did not cause the failure, but we wanted to help you out. We have sold and installed numerous cams since yours was installed in late August/early September with no problems at all. I can say with 100% confidence that the cylinder head did NOT break, causing the lobe of the camshaft to break off.
Feel free to give me a call if you would like to discuss this.
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
We use Comp Cams for our cam grinding because of their reputation, accuracy, and ability to make great power. Of the literally thousands of camshafts that we've had ground for us by them, this is the first time we've ever seen this happen. I can tell you that the cylinder head did not break off first, causing an entire lobe of the camshaft to break off. If the cylinder head was untouched and was still assembled as when it came out of the box, there was not a coil bind issue. Our dual valve spring does not coil bind until .720" lift! We've run a LOT of MS4's with the PRC stage 1 LS6 heads with no problems whatsoever. We're always here to help our customers in any way possible. I personally stayed in contact with Comp regarding the situation, and we covered the CNC work, valve job, new valves, etc. to help get you back up and running. All we charged for was the head casting. We tried to help in any way that we could to get you back up and running. The cylinder head did not cause the failure, but we wanted to help you out. We have sold and installed numerous cams since yours was installed in late August/early September with no problems at all. I can say with 100% confidence that the cylinder head did NOT break, causing the lobe of the camshaft to break off.
Feel free to give me a call if you would like to discuss this.
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
Originally Posted by Quik99SS
[rant]
A piece of one of the lobes from the cam broke off and shot through one of my brand new cylinder heads and scarred up my bearings.
A piece of one of the lobes from the cam broke off and shot through one of my brand new cylinder heads and scarred up my bearings.
No way. First, there is no clear path from the cam lobe to the head without involving lifters, lifter tray, etc. and there is no mention of these being damaged. Second, the head failure appears to be a typical brittle fracture in an aluminum casting and a close-up of the surface will likely tell you where the cracking started and from there the reason why might be found. Many things could have caused this, including a lifter and/or pushrod. How is the lifter bore on this lobe, is it still smooth? I think the damage to the cam is the result of some other failure, not the other way around. Several people have asked about the condition of the lifters, but there have been no mention of the other parts in the valve train.
Originally Posted by vettenuts
No way. First, there is no clear path from the cam lobe to the head without involving lifters, lifter tray, etc. and there is no mention of these being damaged. Second, the head failure appears to be a typical brittle fracture in an aluminum casting and a close-up of the surface will likely tell you where the cracking started and from there the reason why might be found. Many things could have caused this, including a lifter and/or pushrod. How is the lifter bore on this lobe, is it still smooth? I think the damage to the cam is the result of some other failure, not the other way around. Several people have asked about the condition of the lifters, but there have been no mention of the other parts in the valve train.
Last edited by Beast96Z; Nov 9, 2006 at 07:28 PM.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,620
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From: BFE
How would a piece of a cam shoot through the lifter, p-rod (both in a bore with cups).
Is the lobe damaged correspond to the rocker area broken?
Also could you post a pic of lifter?
A bogus, untreated cam can result in such damage, Futral and Comp had issues not too long ago with bogus cores.
However TSP had issues with rocker area breaking off too.
IMO to decide which caused which looks a bit difficult, unless Comp Cam says the cam is indeed not hardened.
Now as far as responsibilty and liability. Well Comp replaced the cam, TSP should take the heads back and determine if the damage is similar to the problems they experienced before. If so they should replace the heads free. Any other damage to other parts or motor is well part of modding, and you are on your own.
I think that you should not have dealt with Comp if the parts were bought from TSP. You should have sent the damaged cam/lifter/heads to TSP with pics of the block area etc.. for them to deal with Comp and assessing the damage on their parts.
Is the lobe damaged correspond to the rocker area broken?
Also could you post a pic of lifter?
A bogus, untreated cam can result in such damage, Futral and Comp had issues not too long ago with bogus cores.
However TSP had issues with rocker area breaking off too.
IMO to decide which caused which looks a bit difficult, unless Comp Cam says the cam is indeed not hardened.
Now as far as responsibilty and liability. Well Comp replaced the cam, TSP should take the heads back and determine if the damage is similar to the problems they experienced before. If so they should replace the heads free. Any other damage to other parts or motor is well part of modding, and you are on your own.
I think that you should not have dealt with Comp if the parts were bought from TSP. You should have sent the damaged cam/lifter/heads to TSP with pics of the block area etc.. for them to deal with Comp and assessing the damage on their parts.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,294
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From: Dallas (Richardson), TX, USA
Originally Posted by rickyracer25
And that's why I spend ALL, and I mean ALL of my money at TSP 
Good luck getting it taken care of, Thunder Racing uses comp cams as well, and when i took my TR224 cam out, every lobe was "washed out" the hardening on the cam was crap.
along with all my lobes going to crap, it left my lifters rather shot. luckily thunder was kind enough to replace my lifters, they were going to replace my cam as well, but since i was already swapping my cam i said don't bother.
Comp has had some quality issues i believe though
along with all my lobes going to crap, it left my lifters rather shot. luckily thunder was kind enough to replace my lifters, they were going to replace my cam as well, but since i was already swapping my cam i said don't bother.
Comp has had some quality issues i believe though
Looks like nobody is going above and beyond, but is doing exactly as much as they should and can. I like to see all parties work together like this. I mean, Comp made the bad cam. But TSP put their name on it, so it became their baby. So I like that both are fixing it, but who paid for the new head? And how was it determined that the cam caused the break? I still don't see how that can be proven, especially since the head breakage is more likely than a cam breaking.
I've seen chewed up lobes on LSx cams before, but i've never seen one break a cylinder head. i'd checkeck everything before i put the engine back together. i'd want to see all 16 valvesprings checked on a rimac, definitely new lifters and maybe lifter retainers(maybe that lifter did start to spin) the pushrods(the correct length for your setup), etc. i take it there was no piston to valve contact? the valve springs may not have bound, but maybe a valve seal hitting the valve retainer at max lobe lift? its possible the engine could have been experiencing valve float, since you said it was misfiring before it finally broke. main point is, i know you say you know what happened, but its my opinion that you ought to delve a little deeper into your failure analysis before you put the engine back together, because i agree with others in this post that the cam wasn't the only thing at fault here. i 'll almost go as far as saying that the cam's failure was "helped along" by something else.
Have you mic'd the heads to see how thick they are in the area that broke? Maybe someone can mic some stock unported heads and another set of ported heads, to see if they were unusually thin.
Either way, it sucks man. Good parts and something like this happens, it sucks. But I'm sure it'll be a beast when it's back together.
Either way, it sucks man. Good parts and something like this happens, it sucks. But I'm sure it'll be a beast when it's back together.
If a lifter spun in the lifter bore causing a cam lobe damage the plastic lifter tray would have to be fractured and you would find evidence of that during the tear down. There was no mention of such a failure. If this sort of thing did happen you would think the bottom end would have sustained more damage than the top. I believe the pan needs to come off on this one.
it sucks that this happened.i feel real bad for Quick99SS.but let's not get carried away and start thinking there's a rash of bad cam cores out there.i'm sure it happens from time to time,unfortunately that happens in mass production.
but from what i've seen and read on this thread i do find it hard to believe the chunk of cam coming off caused this.like others have said,i would make sure everything else in the motor is good before i put it back together.
but from what i've seen and read on this thread i do find it hard to believe the chunk of cam coming off caused this.like others have said,i would make sure everything else in the motor is good before i put it back together.
I wonder if maybe the heel of the lobe came apart rode the rest of the profile around and shot the lifter up further than it should have went resulting in coil binding and breakage of the head.
Last edited by The stunningman; Nov 26, 2006 at 09:21 AM.
