Results with ETP heads.
#241
This is great! I've never read a thread half this long, I just read this complete thread, and I'm waiting for more! Great work guys Collins, Mamo etc.. I think Sean C is onto something, but I'd hate to go against tried true combo's! Keep it up guys!
#242
What happened to the intake swap?
Originally Posted by Zach@Texas-Speed
We just put down 460rwhp through and LS6 intake, MS3 (237/242 .603 .609 113LSA), PRC stage 2.5 5.3L heads (1199 assembled )
We are swapping the FAST 90/90 onto the car today, I will post up the GAINS and disprove this immediately.
We had a fast 90/90 pick up over 30 on a 98 H/C car last week coming from the LS1 manifold.
Thank You.
We are swapping the FAST 90/90 onto the car today, I will post up the GAINS and disprove this immediately.
We had a fast 90/90 pick up over 30 on a 98 H/C car last week coming from the LS1 manifold.
Thank You.
yes, this thread has been very interesting but.... I think we really need to see zacks swaping of the intakes to make it an even more interesting thread
#243
im sure it was somewhere in the last 13 pages, but what type or dyno is being used to test this at Texas Speed? Seeing the 460hp, i'm gonna assume it's a Dynojet. i really need to put my car on a dynojet so i can "compare" with the rest of the world that uses those things
#244
I should also state that the FAST 90 does pick up over the LS6 in everything I've seen. I was pointing out that you need to optimize for it's cross-sectional area and tuner runner length to get the best average power. Notice I'm not talking peak.
#245
does anybody out there have the FAST setup with stock heads and a decent sized cam? I'd like to see what you make because i just got down with my cam swap (Stock Heads) with an LS6 intake and im preety sure its going to perform as good if not better than a FAST intake cam only car, time will tell, stop ragging on Sean he knows what he's talking about and his results don't lie!
#247
Originally Posted by Keego_Ridah
im preety sure its going to perform as good if not better than a FAST intake cam only car, time will tell, stop ragging on Sean he knows what he's talking about and his results don't lie!
I picked up 10rwhp, and 8 peak Tq on a STOCK bolt on C6. I picked up over 20Tq at the wheels in some spots on the curve, never losing anything over the factory.
Sean, show some data, show some dyno graphs. All we have is your word, over the internet. Only a few people know you, no one knows your background, and no one knows your rough cam specs (LSA, Standard split, single pattern, reverse split, ect)
You can talk all you want, but at some point, you have to have proof of what you have done. You know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words...
#249
Originally Posted by GrannySShifting
I have a 232 intake lobe, and Im sure it will slow down if I take my 90 off and put a ls6 on, thatsa rediculous statement.
#250
What did it make? YOU CANT COMPARE DYNO NUMBERS! It made 412 with the setup it ran times in my sig, on our Mustang dyno. Was no a clean pass though, so a similair cam size and weight car - Colins should be able to go faster than 11.3 or 122 mph
#251
Cam Specs are closely guarded secrets around here. Worked hard to develope them.
data is all over this thread. start at page one.
Something was wrong with your stock c6. did you do any calibration work before you swapped the intake ??? If not and you did calibration work post swapping the intake i would bet thats where you found your Hp and Tq. the LS2 intake is a great piece of hardware with the right camshaft.Its picked up a bad wrap and i have yet to figure out how.
data is all over this thread. start at page one.
Something was wrong with your stock c6. did you do any calibration work before you swapped the intake ??? If not and you did calibration work post swapping the intake i would bet thats where you found your Hp and Tq. the LS2 intake is a great piece of hardware with the right camshaft.Its picked up a bad wrap and i have yet to figure out how.
Originally Posted by Louis
Pretty sure? We like Data here, hard results, dynos back to back. ASSuming something with out the knowledge to back it up means nothing.
I picked up 10rwhp, and 8 peak Tq on a STOCK bolt on C6. I picked up over 20Tq at the wheels in some spots on the curve, never losing anything over the factory.
Sean, show some data, show some dyno graphs. All we have is your word, over the internet. Only a few people know you, no one knows your background, and no one knows your rough cam specs (LSA, Standard split, single pattern, reverse split, ect)
You can talk all you want, but at some point, you have to have proof of what you have done. You know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words...
I picked up 10rwhp, and 8 peak Tq on a STOCK bolt on C6. I picked up over 20Tq at the wheels in some spots on the curve, never losing anything over the factory.
Sean, show some data, show some dyno graphs. All we have is your word, over the internet. Only a few people know you, no one knows your background, and no one knows your rough cam specs (LSA, Standard split, single pattern, reverse split, ect)
You can talk all you want, but at some point, you have to have proof of what you have done. You know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words...
#252
Originally Posted by Sean Collins
I had to take a few days from the this thread it was really begining to grate my nerves. Back on topic
IVO is CRITICAL IN A TUNNED RUNNER APPLICATION PERIOD !!!!!!!!!! In fact its the first place to start. If you don't start there you cannot will not get the Wave action in the intake runner to fill the cylinder. IVC would be next. First you must open the valve at the right time and then close it early/late enough to fill the cylinder while preventing excessive reversion.agian critical in a tunned runner because you can set off a chain of timming events that will totally unravel everything you have attempted to accomplish by basically setting off an uncontrolled echo chamber.
EVO will need to be played with and sevral factors are critical to this working. One is exhuast. design the Camshaft for the applciation. If you have a full exhuast system. EVO/EVC is going to depend on lobe length and overlap but in a full exhuast application Overlap should be kept within reason. where that is depends on CI,Header Primary,Collector,system.
these would be the most basic of thing needed to even begin designing a camshaft.
To top this off i have spent some time examing a few Fast 78 and 90mm intakes and there is a disturbing shaping change in the runner.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec.../photo_09.html
to adress that dyno sheet. you wouldn't make 360Hp 330Tq on our machine.
IVO is CRITICAL IN A TUNNED RUNNER APPLICATION PERIOD !!!!!!!!!! In fact its the first place to start. If you don't start there you cannot will not get the Wave action in the intake runner to fill the cylinder. IVC would be next. First you must open the valve at the right time and then close it early/late enough to fill the cylinder while preventing excessive reversion.agian critical in a tunned runner because you can set off a chain of timming events that will totally unravel everything you have attempted to accomplish by basically setting off an uncontrolled echo chamber.
EVO will need to be played with and sevral factors are critical to this working. One is exhuast. design the Camshaft for the applciation. If you have a full exhuast system. EVO/EVC is going to depend on lobe length and overlap but in a full exhuast application Overlap should be kept within reason. where that is depends on CI,Header Primary,Collector,system.
these would be the most basic of thing needed to even begin designing a camshaft.
To top this off i have spent some time examing a few Fast 78 and 90mm intakes and there is a disturbing shaping change in the runner.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec.../photo_09.html
to adress that dyno sheet. you wouldn't make 360Hp 330Tq on our machine.
Wow, I just read this thread and I have to say that man you guys really jump on a guys nuts after he offers up test data that you don't like. His results don't like the FAST intake, others do.... so he does something different don't punish him because of that all you will get then is less results that are different around here.... but lord knows we all like lemmings around here.
FWIW Sean has two points on here that everyone should pay attention too.
1. He's right that IVO is very important. You might want to go ask UDHarrold on any forum you can find him on what his imput is on that. All the events of the intake are important in my book, I don't like to pick just one.
2. The intake design properties he talks about here are exactly correct:
"Big no no. You never neck down a runner after you expand in and out of a trasition. It can create wave action and airflow choke points. This would be my geuss as to why power fell off. You would never see this in a sinlge plane intake or a dual plane or an ITB or any other intake.If you did i would bet many competing intakes without this design feature would easily out perform but maybe not outflow it.
Have a look at a factory ls6 or ls2 intake. they do not have this runner feature. This is bad design plain and simple. In fact run this design by the guys at reher morrison and see what they say about the runner shape they spend alot of time designing runner or even run it by Hogan. When you create a runner cross section change that reduces then increases volume you have 3 changes in air velocity. Will create problems with wave action and airflow when the engine is working dynamically. It also explains the dip in the power curve."
Have a look at a factory ls6 or ls2 intake. they do not have this runner feature. This is bad design plain and simple. In fact run this design by the guys at reher morrison and see what they say about the runner shape they spend alot of time designing runner or even run it by Hogan. When you create a runner cross section change that reduces then increases volume you have 3 changes in air velocity. Will create problems with wave action and airflow when the engine is working dynamically. It also explains the dip in the power curve."
I agree that Keith Wilson is a smart dude, but remember he is not the only one who works at his shop and the FAST intake was designed for the Comp Group by them with CFD.... that can definately have flaws in it.
Bret
PS, **** I didn't realize this was on LS1-LS6 Internal Performance or I woulda never posted..... ughhhh
Last edited by SStrokerAce; 12-10-2006 at 02:12 AM.
#253
Originally Posted by Sean Collins
Cam Specs are closely guarded secrets around here. Worked hard to develope them.
data is all over this thread. start at page one.
Something was wrong with your stock c6. did you do any calibration work before you swapped the intake ??? If not and you did calibration work post swapping the intake i would bet thats where you found your Hp and Tq. the LS2 intake is a great piece of hardware with the right camshaft.Its picked up a bad wrap and i have yet to figure out how.
data is all over this thread. start at page one.
Something was wrong with your stock c6. did you do any calibration work before you swapped the intake ??? If not and you did calibration work post swapping the intake i would bet thats where you found your Hp and Tq. the LS2 intake is a great piece of hardware with the right camshaft.Its picked up a bad wrap and i have yet to figure out how.
Hi Sean, I read all of the pages before I made that post, and there is zero data in here. No worries though, its not a big deal.
As for there being an issue with my C6? No, not really. It was tuned indeed before the FAST. Trust me, you are not talking to someone who leaves a stone unturned.
the LS2 intake does have issues, sure its on par with an LS6, but the minute you put a 90mm tb on an LS6, its game over. I dont know why, or how, or what for, all I have is dynos.
#254
Originally Posted by Louis
Hi Sean, I read all of the pages before I made that post, and there is zero data in here. No worries though, its not a big deal.
As for there being an issue with my C6? No, not really. It was tuned indeed before the FAST. Trust me, you are not talking to someone who leaves a stone unturned.
the LS2 intake does have issues, sure its on par with an LS6, but the minute you put a 90mm tb on an LS6, its game over. I dont know why, or how, or what for, all I have is dynos.
As for there being an issue with my C6? No, not really. It was tuned indeed before the FAST. Trust me, you are not talking to someone who leaves a stone unturned.
the LS2 intake does have issues, sure its on par with an LS6, but the minute you put a 90mm tb on an LS6, its game over. I dont know why, or how, or what for, all I have is dynos.
Have yet to try a ls6 90mm TB. If you are picking up power with a fast intake in general from what i have seen its becuase you have pushed the IVO to far forward. I have seen some phenominal power from the ls2 intake on 6.0 and 400+ cubic inchs motors. the ls6 does not live here.
#255
wow this thread is calming down now, nice too see. i would not have any problem getting advice from S. Collins, Patrick g, Predator, Matt, and probably another that i missed. and anyone that did would not go wrong if they follow 'all' intructions from either person. Patrick g has provided help to a multitude of people for their different applications at no charge and could become a cam supplier if he wanted. Sean collins has not been here long and some people discard his opinion because of that. well that is their mistake and error. it is ashame that people base experience by how long you have been on the internet!? i thought it should be by years of experience and application. remember also that S. Collins is obviously someone who actualy builds cars not just someone who goes to joe's garage to get his cam or intake swapped. just for the record i'll state this too i don't know anthing about modifying the aluminum lsx series of engines but more than 99% of the people here. if we were talking about an old 350 iron block that would be a different story. i have a 355 roller motor on the floor of the shop that will break 10" tires loose at 120 mph. yes it does run on race gas, yes it will turn over 8,000 rpm and yes it is very expensive even though we built it. and yes it has won most of the races it has been in and won most series championships. i know what intake and cam works in that car. it seems i must ad this last part because i am an old guy and have not been on the internet hence most will discard what i say. i have however enjoyed reading some of the thread (recently learned that term) the other useless parts reminds me of myself when i was young and stupid.
Last edited by mullenh; 12-10-2006 at 01:04 PM. Reason: caps
#258
It is not because he hasn't been here long enough.
It is the fact that he has no data to back up his claims.
The major claim is that the FAST is junk, that the LS2 outpowers it and that he lost so much power swapping various ones on setups.
Too much data showing otherwise. It is possible that a "certain" cam grind is just not matching the dynamics of that intake, that can happen with heads etc...
But to say that the LS6 is superior as well as the LS2 is just not true.
Components mismatch, yes, I agree with that, everyone knows that one of the most common errors is doing so and making less power.
Now is the FAST "LORD" of all intakes, no. But it makes the power needed with the right cam specs and heads, more than a LS6 or LS2 (in stock forms).
The LS2 is a good intake but it needs modifying, ie: porting. The Aussies have proven that and once ported the LS2 does outdo the FAST. The aussies even designed a costom tool to port the LS2. Now that is innovation.
Bottom line, we go back to the magic word "COMBO". properly matched with the right parts, the FAST has it place in the market. still too darn expensive though.
It is the fact that he has no data to back up his claims.
The major claim is that the FAST is junk, that the LS2 outpowers it and that he lost so much power swapping various ones on setups.
Too much data showing otherwise. It is possible that a "certain" cam grind is just not matching the dynamics of that intake, that can happen with heads etc...
But to say that the LS6 is superior as well as the LS2 is just not true.
Components mismatch, yes, I agree with that, everyone knows that one of the most common errors is doing so and making less power.
Now is the FAST "LORD" of all intakes, no. But it makes the power needed with the right cam specs and heads, more than a LS6 or LS2 (in stock forms).
The LS2 is a good intake but it needs modifying, ie: porting. The Aussies have proven that and once ported the LS2 does outdo the FAST. The aussies even designed a costom tool to port the LS2. Now that is innovation.
Bottom line, we go back to the magic word "COMBO". properly matched with the right parts, the FAST has it place in the market. still too darn expensive though.
#260
Originally Posted by Sean Collins
The intake may or may not work. It really depends on the runners input and output impedence ralative to wave action in the intake manifold Varying runner tappers may interact with different port shapes in either a positive or negative manner.Basically the Cam will affect any and all Waveaction in the manifold. The Cams that we generally see used do not produce the type of wave action that works with the FAST impedences but again this is dependent on a multitude of factors. To make the Blanket statement that the FAST intake will always increase HP and TQ is ignorant.There are a ton of factors in play.