RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Thanks to everyone for their input!

PSJ, looks like I’ll just go with the one that Tom wanted me to then, the .563/.563//222/222//114. I’ll be getting custom tuning anyway for some other issues, so this cam should do great once tuned with me shifting at 6400.

I’d still consider the 220/220, but I think I want to be a little more aggressive as the future might (I hope) hold a set of heads and intake for me <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

Raughammer

My two cents.
The advance /retard issue is exactly as Pat is quoting Judson.
If you HAVE to advance it or retard for the most power... it is not the correct cam. It is either too small... or too large.

For this application that the original poster asked about.

The 222/222 .566/.566 on a 112 will make the most kick *** track/street usable power.. but with compromises. It will idle pretty smooth, but it will also be harder to pass emissions than the same cam on a 114. The same cam on a 114 will idle even smoother and have less over lap. So it will be cleaner but it will move the peak power up the RPM level just a tad. (about 100~150).

If he wants the best of of both worlds look at a slightly smaller cam. The 220/220 on a 114 l/s with a 110 i/c that is featured on my cam page. Would be a STRONG performer.

Split vs. single grinds. If the heads will support it. (WWhich even the stock LS1's will) the singles will idle smoother, put out the most power (in general if the combo is set up with a good exhaust and intake).

A split cam is a (more exhaust than intake duration) crutch to prop up a weak head design. The singles have more than proven themselves over the past two years. Yes some split cam do kick ***..... but are they kicking more *** than singles? Yes in some applications... but the majority?

Enough of the soap bax.

RPM, there is NO PERFECT cam. there will always be compromises.
Look at what cams folks are using.. find the cars that are doing what you wish yours was capable of. And copy him or slightly modify it to suit your application.

For you and your SAFE application a:
Duration at .050 intake/exhaust- 218/218
maximum lift with 1.7 rockers- .563/.563
lobe seperation- 114 with 112 I/C
Just put it in and forget it, for you this would be a good choice.

If you wanted to step it up, look at:

Cam specs: Comp Cam/ MTI Hammer cam
Duration at .050 intake/exhaust- 222/222
maximum lift with 1.7 rockers- .566/.566
lobe separation- 114
Manufacturer- Comp Cams
Pros, good emissions, great idle, great power, aggresive lobes.

For the best street/track performance
look at

Cam specs: Comp Cam/ MTI Hammer cam
Duration at .050 intake/exhaust- 222/222
maximum lift with 1.7 rockers- .566/.566
lobe separation- 112
Manufacturer- Comp Cams
Pro's, GREAT power, aggresive lobes, proven performer, great power band, and will work wonderful when and if you ever do heads.


Dont get all confused by the myriad of choices. It is easy to lose your focus.
Set your mind on a goal and accomplish it.


Now, on to the programming. I would advise you to keep your HPP3. As a tuning tool it is invaluable. In the summer you can take away timing, or not. You can adjust your sift points for different size tires. Slicks or Nittos for example. You can adjust your shift points by trial and error with the HPP at the track and find what is the best performing-low rpm performing shift point that you can live with.

Go with the best spring you can afford. A dual spring is the best for these aggresive lobs of the above mentioned cams. The duals are not necessary.. but if you can swing it... it is what I recommend.

Read my cam page and read it again. The folks who use these cams put their thoughts and experiances there. Use their mistakes and experiances to guide you.

Good luck.

John Campbell, 10.86 e.t. in a daily driver, N/A.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Raughammer, thanks again!

I did what you said and I re-read your cam page. I just focused on the cams that are close to what I think I need.

You couldn’t be more right about loosing my focus! With all the available info it’s real easy to loose it!

I do want to stay as “safe” as possible, so that leans me towards the 218/218 114
But I think I might want more, which pulls me towards the 220/220 114

In the end I’ll probably do a 220/220 114 with 2 to 4 deg advance (112 to 110 IC I’d guess that to be?), or maybe just strait up? I still need to work that part out.

I figure Ragtop was right about splitting the difference between the “safe” 218 and the “aggressive” 222. I just don’t know if the 220 should be advanced or not, that is probably my last sticking point.

If I do heads I’ll consider dual springs. For now, 918s are the best I can do (as far as I know)

The HPP3 is a great tool, but Jayson @ MTI told me that I should only use it for gear changes and shift points after even his HPP3 compatible tuning. I just don’t feel right about having $800 tied up in tuning. I can get some of that back by selling the HPP and I know I’m only willing to spin the motor to 6400 anyway, so I wouldn't change much in the way of shifting. No matter what cam I get I want custom tuning. I NEED to get rid of TM and I want to ditch that PO300 code so I don’t have to deal with the converter unlocking every now and again even with a 114 cam.

You are also right about there never being one perfect cam for everyone. I’m just trying to get as close as possible <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> . Obviously, you have done an excellent job of that with your car, and I would be ready to hop on the wagon and get your cam too if it wasn’t for emission issues. Point is, I really appreciate yours and everyone else’s input into my case. You guys have helped to both confuse and enlighten me <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

If anyone wants to add anything more to this, please do so. More info is never bad (maybe confusing, but not bad <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> )

MyLS1Hauls

iTrader: (2)

[quote] In the end I’ll probably do a 220/220 114 with 2 to 4 deg advance (112 to 110 IC I’d guess that to be?), or maybe just strait up? I still need to work that part out.

<hr></blockquote>

Doesnt the term straight up mean that you didnt advance or retard the cam by using the timing set?...not what's already ground in. So if you got a cam with 4* ground in advance and then installed it dot to dot, it would still be straight up right?

Damian

iTrader: (89)

I think John bought one extra Hammer cam to put next to his pillow at night <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">


Josh

Damian

iTrader: (89)

[quote]There's a guy here in Georgia using a split duration on a 110LSA and is making 410 rwhp & 400+ rwtq.<hr></blockquote>


Jim, if you're talking about Ron Mowen's car, his cam is a 112 lsa.


Josh

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

114LSA/110IC means that the cam would have 4 degrees of advanced which could move the power band down like 200 more more rpms.

My 221/224//113lsa/111IC setup made peak at 6200 rpms and I never shifted it over 6400 rpms.

RPM/Ryan, the higher you spin the motor the more wear you put on the internals.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

[quote]Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong>

RPM/Ryan, the higher you spin the motor the more wear you put on the internals.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Definitely agreed! That’s why I want to keep the shift points down to 63/6400.

And thanks for the explanation. But are there any downsides to extra advance? Sounds like all it does is move the power band, which is good, but there must be a draw back, right? I could very well be wrong though...

Sounds like a 220/220 114LSA 110IC might be just what I want <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

[quote]Originally posted by RPM WS6:
<strong>

And thanks for the explanation. But are there any downsides to extra advance? Sounds like all it does is move the power band, which is good, but there must be a draw back, right? I could very well be wrong though...
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Drawbacks...
It doesn't always succed in moving the powerband down significantly.

Some argue that it is a bandiad approach and if you want your power lower, then you should use less duration and/or lower LSA to acheive it.

Jimmyz

iTrader: (3)

Why is it that everyone uses these single pattern cams? <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

There's a guy here in Georgia using a split duration on a 110LSA and is making 410 rwhp & 400+ rwtq.

My point is there are other alternatives you could look at.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

So let’s say I’m going to go with the .563/.563//220/220//114. Both Ragtop and Raughammer recommended using a 110 IC for this cam. But some have also said that if I need the advance that the cam is most likely to big.

I just want a final thought from those of you that have recommended the 220/220 114 in my case as to whether or not a 110 IC, 112 IC, or no advance built in at all is the “best” possible way to go. It just confuses me that some of you guys recommend the 110 IC but then say that it’s just a band-aid fix for too big of a cam, or that it might not even work, or that it will hinder power under the curve, etc.

I’m willing to shift at 6400 rpm if that helps...

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

There is a reason why a lot of the guys are recommending cams with 2-4 degrees of advance built in...and most of it is not to compensate for a cam that's too big. A single pattern cam with a duration at .050 around 220-224 seems to be ideal for a stock displacement LS1. If you get a cam in this range, it will run best when installed straight up...but keep in mind, straight up does not mean "lining up the dots".

Straight up means the installed intake centerline matches that of the lobe separation angle. If you have a 222/222 114LSA cam, installing the cam straight up would mean you install it at 114 intake centerline. Problems can occur when you just "line up the dots". If utilizing the stock timing chain and sprocket, often they have 2-4 degrees of retard in them (from chain stretch or production variances). If your cam is ground with no advance and you just line up the dots, the cam could possibly be installed 2-4 degrees retarded (even though the cam was ground "straight up").

Savvy racers hedge their bets by grinding in a few degrees of advance to compensate for the possible retard built into our timing chain and sprockets. When they line up the dots, the 2-4 degrees of advance built into the cams actually get the installed centerline very close to "straight up" because they offset the retard of the stock timing chain and sprockets.

Real racers always check the "installed centerline" with a degree wheel to be sure, but if you can only afford to just "line up the dots", a cam with a few degrees of advance may very well get your cam closest to being straight up in your motor.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Thanks Patrick. That clears up the last "mystery" that I wanted to understand!

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

FWIW, I used 2 degrees advance in my 218/218 114 cam.

I have observed that TR 224 (which I have now) & MTI B1 both grind 4 degrees of advance into their cams. I certainly can't debate with SAM but cars running with MTI & TR cams are doing well, so emulating their specs isn't too bad an idea. <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

FWIW,

Most shops don't have the time to painstakingly "degree in" a cam. If they did, they would need to charge an extra $200-300 for the time. MTI grinds their cams with 4 degrees of advance because they've found this gets them closest to "straight up" when they just line up the dots. The School of Automotive Machinists on the other hand, takes the extra time to degree-in every cam they do...and trust me, they're all installed straight up.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Ragtop, as always, thanks for your input! I guess I’ll go with either 112 IC or 110 IC. Probably the 110. I might even still go with the B1, who knows!

Raughammer

[quote]Originally posted by RPM WS6:
<strong>Raughammer, thanks again!
In the end I’ll probably do a 220/220 114 with 2 to 4 deg advance (112 to 110 IC I’d guess that to be?), or maybe just strait up? I still need to work that part out.

I figure Ragtop was right about splitting the difference between the “safe” 218 and the “aggressive” 222. I just don’t know if the 220 should be advanced or not, that is probably my last sticking point.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

The 220/220 (which i have recommended time and time again to folks who want to avoid all the tuning issues and yet want good power) IMO should be installed straight up. WITH 4 DEGREES OF ADVANCE GROUND IN. This is done to "take up the slack" of the timing chain.

Yes, Damien, I do like the Hammer, it has done me right. The aggresive lobes, the accurate Comp Cam lobes, the fact that it is widely available from many sources, it's proven performance as a streetable well performing cam. Until something comes down the pike that pushes it aside... then i'll be all over that new puppy like a 5 year old at cristmas. But for now? the Hammer (C1-Campbell 1 ) has done me right.

RPM? good luck with your cam choice!

Campbell

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Thanks again to all! The info that you guys have provided me with in this post is great to say the least!

Looks like I’ll be going Comp .563/.563//220/220//114LSA//110IC custom (or just a regular B1).

Thanks again guys, you’ve helped me more than I can say. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

Damian

iTrader: (89)

[quote]Yes, Damien, I do like the Hammer, it has done me right. The aggresive lobes, the accurate Comp Cam lobes, the fact that it is widely available from many sources, it's proven performance as a streetable well performing cam. Until something comes down the pike that pushes it aside... then i'll be all over that new puppy like a 5 year old at cristmas. But for now? the Hammer (C1-Campbell 1 ) has done me right.<hr></blockquote>


Cool man!! I was just messin around with ya since I see you post so much info about it <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> . The Hammer cam is probably going to be my cam of choice for my 2002. I am glad to see you're running so well with it, and hopefully i'll have similar numbers. Take care


Patrick, that is some AWESOME info. Now I have a question for you. If you replace the stock timing chain with an aftermarket with zero slack, does it then become straight up when you do "dot to dot"? I have installed several cams the old fashioned way using "dot to dot", but this slack problem you're mentioning could be the culprit for some people being down on power.


Josh

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: DamianLS1 ]</p>

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

Damien,

You could install a new, more robust timing chain set that would take out the slack, but even those will stretch over time...just not as much as the wimpy stock chains, LOL. Your best bet would be to install a cam with 4 degrees of advance when installing dot to dot on a used chain and maybe 2 degrees of advance if installing an aftermarket chain. This should get the installed centerline close to straight up once you account for chain stretch and wear.

Of course, the best way to know is by using a degree wheel and bringing the cam timing in with an adjustable cam sprocket or offset bushing kit.