Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock
01-28-2003, 09:05 AM
#21
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock JOHN:
Does this mean since you found the problem with your 422 that you will put on hold your turbo project as you are going to fix the 422 and use that for another season?
John/Anyone Else:
Also, in simple non-mechanical laymen's terms, what should an engine builder do to avoid what this serious problem that your 422 was unfortunately afflicted with.
Thanks and BEST OF LUCK with the car!
MTI 427 Roadster
Does this mean since you found the problem with your 422 that you will put on hold your turbo project as you are going to fix the 422 and use that for another season?
John/Anyone Else:
Also, in simple non-mechanical laymen's terms, what should an engine builder do to avoid what this serious problem that your 422 was unfortunately afflicted with.
Thanks and BEST OF LUCK with the car!
MTI 427 Roadster
01-28-2003, 09:23 AM
#22
Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock John I feel for ya buddy,its sad to see this kinda stuff but I know you'll get is worked out.
I didnt mean anything bad by asking who would build the turbo short block,I was more curious than anything else.I see u have been dealing alot w/Speed Inc so I figured they might be helping u out.
FWIW,I'm gonna slow my car down.I want a true 11.60 street car on DR's and full weight.Thats my goal for 03.Hardcore gets too $$ and requires too much time an effort.I'm lazy in my old age and just wanna polish the car now,race it a few times a yr and go to car shows <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Whatever you decide w/this endevor,I wish u the best..
JS
I didnt mean anything bad by asking who would build the turbo short block,I was more curious than anything else.I see u have been dealing alot w/Speed Inc so I figured they might be helping u out.
FWIW,I'm gonna slow my car down.I want a true 11.60 street car on DR's and full weight.Thats my goal for 03.Hardcore gets too $$ and requires too much time an effort.I'm lazy in my old age and just wanna polish the car now,race it a few times a yr and go to car shows <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
Whatever you decide w/this endevor,I wish u the best..
JS
01-28-2003, 10:35 AM
#23
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock Yeah Darren I know you guys had some problems with the silver car.
Bottom line is that when a person buys a turnkey package it better be turnkey, ie. it should be what you paid for.
Folks when you buy big packages, it's important to write down what you want out of the package. When the car is ready, it's important for the shop to make sure that everything on your list was done. If you car isn't 100% done, don't pick it up. Things happen. Sometimes folks forget.
I think that I might be putting together my next shortblock with the help and guidance of a local friend AS well as guidance and support from one of our piston sponsors. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Bottom line is that when a person buys a turnkey package it better be turnkey, ie. it should be what you paid for.
Folks when you buy big packages, it's important to write down what you want out of the package. When the car is ready, it's important for the shop to make sure that everything on your list was done. If you car isn't 100% done, don't pick it up. Things happen. Sometimes folks forget.
I think that I might be putting together my next shortblock with the help and guidance of a local friend AS well as guidance and support from one of our piston sponsors. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
01-28-2003, 10:46 AM
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock John, I feel and I have felt your pain.
Good luck with your new setup.
Dave
SAM 436
www.thebeasst.com
Good luck with your new setup.
Dave
SAM 436
www.thebeasst.com
01-29-2003, 12:13 AM
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock Sometimes the best way to get something done is to just do it yourself. That way you know that everything is torqued properly, and assembled properly. Best of luck on your new engine build up.
01-29-2003, 12:19 AM
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock John...all kidding aside, the greatest advice I can give you is pick one person..and team up with them. The biggest problem with you car is there are too many hands under the hood. There are plenty of people on here that know what they are doing, and even more that don't. You need to pick one and have them help ya. Good luck!
Chris
Chris
01-29-2003, 12:37 AM
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock I've been talking to the guy I sold the shortblock too (very good price), and here is a preliminary theory...
(Lunati) said that they don't know what would have caused the ring to come loose. I told them the ring is blue like it had been heated up their reply is that it shouldn't be it is a cold press. I also told them it had some side play like if it had an alignment pin worn or something. Their reply is that there is nothing to keep the ring from spinning once it is loose. I am going to speculate on what I think happened. The (shop) gets a 4.00 " stroke crank with the ring on it. They drill the ring and crank to pin it. then they heat it up to remove it. Now they offset grind it to 4.075". next they heat up the ring again to reinstall it the pin they used to line it back up in the right spot is what is keeping the ring from spinning. the heating up stretched out the ring it would still press on but not as tight as it should have thus causing it to come loose when the motor was heated up and running. I think (the shop) used the wrong method of removing and in stalling the reluctor. This just my opinion. lunati is calling me back with some specs for the surface that the reluctor presses on to. they told me get a new reluctor have them press it on and tack weld it in place. I just want to make sure that the reluctor didn't wear down the surface the ring presses on to. let me know what you find out jpr said he has a crank for you. give me a call keep me informed.
(Lunati) said that they don't know what would have caused the ring to come loose. I told them the ring is blue like it had been heated up their reply is that it shouldn't be it is a cold press. I also told them it had some side play like if it had an alignment pin worn or something. Their reply is that there is nothing to keep the ring from spinning once it is loose. I am going to speculate on what I think happened. The (shop) gets a 4.00 " stroke crank with the ring on it. They drill the ring and crank to pin it. then they heat it up to remove it. Now they offset grind it to 4.075". next they heat up the ring again to reinstall it the pin they used to line it back up in the right spot is what is keeping the ring from spinning. the heating up stretched out the ring it would still press on but not as tight as it should have thus causing it to come loose when the motor was heated up and running. I think (the shop) used the wrong method of removing and in stalling the reluctor. This just my opinion. lunati is calling me back with some specs for the surface that the reluctor presses on to. they told me get a new reluctor have them press it on and tack weld it in place. I just want to make sure that the reluctor didn't wear down the surface the ring presses on to. let me know what you find out jpr said he has a crank for you. give me a call keep me informed.
01-29-2003, 08:43 AM
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Reckless, a worn thrust bearing is either from balooning a converter, or from violent M6 action. My used shortblock was supposedly originally built for Snowman. He was M6. Perhaps the thrust bearing was overlooked during the freshup.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting results on your teardown John. My stock bottom end is being rebuilt right now by ARE and also has a worn thrust bearing. M6 for me with little wussy launches (1.9-2.1 60's) and never powershifted. In my case I doubt this happened because of abuse.
Good luck with your new setup!
Good luck with your new setup!
01-29-2003, 01:47 PM
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by C5Wade:
<strong> John, you seem to be leaving out some of the key things, I did ask you to send the motor back so I could fix it (under warranty) for months. It was your choice to go this route.
The reluctor wheel on the crankshaft in your engine was never removed (in fact we have never removed one in this shop), Cola is the only company that sends cranks without a reluctor.
Your reluctor has probably came loose after the thrust bearing got damaged. This would cause the crank to move back enough that the reluctor would hit the block or rear cap since their close to start off with. In the end result, loosening the reluctor on the crankshaft.
The discoloring on the reluctor is from being heat-treated after the crank is stroked. This is the second time I've heard of thrust bearing failure as I just pulled a stock engine out with a bad thrust bearing, and the reluctor was touching the back of the block, but caught soon enough not to loosen it off (BugBlndr's).
I am also not sure why the thrust bearing got wiped out, but I assure you, everything was Properly checked.
This rotating was built into a block for you and was not already assembled.
I'm sorry that this project hasn't went the way we planned, but you know we stand behind our stuff and the right thing to do would have been to send the motor back so we could have diagnosed it and resolved it.
Just wanted to clear things up.
Wade
Agostino Racing Engines </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's the same basic load of crap that I got from ARE. "We tried to work with you, but it's your fault" They got your money and they don't care because they have more people willing to pay. I tried to tell my story and I got hassled by everybody publicy, but got quite a few private E-Mails about some other horror stories with ARE. Good luck with your next motor.
Chris McMillen
<strong> John, you seem to be leaving out some of the key things, I did ask you to send the motor back so I could fix it (under warranty) for months. It was your choice to go this route.
The reluctor wheel on the crankshaft in your engine was never removed (in fact we have never removed one in this shop), Cola is the only company that sends cranks without a reluctor.
Your reluctor has probably came loose after the thrust bearing got damaged. This would cause the crank to move back enough that the reluctor would hit the block or rear cap since their close to start off with. In the end result, loosening the reluctor on the crankshaft.
The discoloring on the reluctor is from being heat-treated after the crank is stroked. This is the second time I've heard of thrust bearing failure as I just pulled a stock engine out with a bad thrust bearing, and the reluctor was touching the back of the block, but caught soon enough not to loosen it off (BugBlndr's).
I am also not sure why the thrust bearing got wiped out, but I assure you, everything was Properly checked.
This rotating was built into a block for you and was not already assembled.
I'm sorry that this project hasn't went the way we planned, but you know we stand behind our stuff and the right thing to do would have been to send the motor back so we could have diagnosed it and resolved it.
Just wanted to clear things up.
Wade
Agostino Racing Engines </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's the same basic load of crap that I got from ARE. "We tried to work with you, but it's your fault" They got your money and they don't care because they have more people willing to pay. I tried to tell my story and I got hassled by everybody publicy, but got quite a few private E-Mails about some other horror stories with ARE. Good luck with your next motor.
Chris McMillen
01-29-2003, 01:52 PM
#30
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock Hi Wade...
I don't think that the reluctor wheel hit a main cap but we'll take a look and post pictures if you want. I think you meant to say that the reluctor wheel could have had contact with a piston and not a main cap. That's the closest that anything comes to the reluctor wheel.
Thing is, I talked to tech at Lunati down in Mississippi. They would be reluctant to offset grind a crank while the reluctor wheel was left on the crank. In their case, most of their machines are Van Normans and they would need to remove the reluctor so the crank would fit in the bed. Their SOP is to grind the crank, and then balance it. And then to press the reluctor wheel on so as to have the best balance. How was mine done?
Now you did offer to help fix it but when I first discovered crank endplay I figured out it would cost me less to fix it locally then just what the roundtrip shipping would have been. That has been our plan all along.
Now that we have a loose and damaged reluctor wheel, we are most comfortable sending the crankshaft back to Lunati and having them press it back on. I am sending them a stock takeout crank so they can use the reluctor off of it.
Now I don't post this stuff to entertain myself.
I am one of the owners this tech website. I always tell it like it is. I expect no less than that from folks who work with me on my projects.
I have not asked you for any compensation but do me the courtesy instead of answering my questions in this post.
I don't think that the reluctor wheel hit a main cap but we'll take a look and post pictures if you want. I think you meant to say that the reluctor wheel could have had contact with a piston and not a main cap. That's the closest that anything comes to the reluctor wheel.
Thing is, I talked to tech at Lunati down in Mississippi. They would be reluctant to offset grind a crank while the reluctor wheel was left on the crank. In their case, most of their machines are Van Normans and they would need to remove the reluctor so the crank would fit in the bed. Their SOP is to grind the crank, and then balance it. And then to press the reluctor wheel on so as to have the best balance. How was mine done?
Now you did offer to help fix it but when I first discovered crank endplay I figured out it would cost me less to fix it locally then just what the roundtrip shipping would have been. That has been our plan all along.
Now that we have a loose and damaged reluctor wheel, we are most comfortable sending the crankshaft back to Lunati and having them press it back on. I am sending them a stock takeout crank so they can use the reluctor off of it.
Now I don't post this stuff to entertain myself.
I am one of the owners this tech website. I always tell it like it is. I expect no less than that from folks who work with me on my projects.
I have not asked you for any compensation but do me the courtesy instead of answering my questions in this post.
01-29-2003, 02:48 PM
#31
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock FYI I talked to Wade on the phone for a long time and we both agree that there are different reasons for having a loose reluctor wheel.
Now I want to say I probably elevated Wade's blood pressure by about double today. I have no problem with Wade whatsoever. I feel that he's a straight shooter and is very knowledgeable. I'll be honest, I don't have any issues whatsoever with Wade's integrity. I respect him, and he's a racer.
I'll just say that I am very, very, very, very, very sad that I could not kick some *** last year. When I was at the Thunder Shootout, and I could not get the car to run properly, I was like "darn, the problem was back." I was pretty heartsick at that point. I live for this stuff and it was killing me not to not be able to drive down the track. I think that's why I drank so much when I was down there. It hurt a lot to see folks running really fast and having a great time. I am also 2nd guessing myself pretty bad right now, thinking I should have pulled the motor a lot sooner than we did. My gut churns right now, full of acid, while I sit in silence.
Thanks for listening while I mourn 2002. Wade thanks for your time on the phone, I have always been impressed by the stuff that you build.
-J
Now I want to say I probably elevated Wade's blood pressure by about double today. I have no problem with Wade whatsoever. I feel that he's a straight shooter and is very knowledgeable. I'll be honest, I don't have any issues whatsoever with Wade's integrity. I respect him, and he's a racer.
I'll just say that I am very, very, very, very, very sad that I could not kick some *** last year. When I was at the Thunder Shootout, and I could not get the car to run properly, I was like "darn, the problem was back." I was pretty heartsick at that point. I live for this stuff and it was killing me not to not be able to drive down the track. I think that's why I drank so much when I was down there. It hurt a lot to see folks running really fast and having a great time. I am also 2nd guessing myself pretty bad right now, thinking I should have pulled the motor a lot sooner than we did. My gut churns right now, full of acid, while I sit in silence.
Thanks for listening while I mourn 2002. Wade thanks for your time on the phone, I have always been impressed by the stuff that you build.
-J
01-29-2003, 03:46 PM
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock I FEEL YOUR PAIN PRO STOCK JOHN! This to shall pass man and it won't be long until your car is ROCKIN and ROLLIN & Performing the way you want it to. Keep your heads up high Brother and BEST OF LUCK on your new endeavors.
MTI 427 C5 Roadster
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01-29-2003, 04:49 PM
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock John, hang in there man. Good motors are like good girlfriends, when it's over you 2nd guess yourself and wonder what went wrong. Then its like they say in a Barber shop "NEXT".
01-29-2003, 05:02 PM
#35
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock PSJ - I went down to the shop to look over a 382in motor that is in right now torn apart. The crank is brand new. The reluctor is "blued". It has not been removed, etc.. It is exactly the way it shipped from Lunati. As for the offset, I can't speak for anyone else's machine. The one at the shop is a Storm-Vulcan. Right now it has a Pulling tractor crank with over a 6" Stroke. That is right at the limit of the bed on it. While I have not had the crank up in the machine yet, I cannot see pulling the reluctor off to ofset grind it. But, that is just on this machine. I can't comment on any others. Ceratinly Wade's theory about the reluctor hitting something is also something that should be examined. Examiniation of the reluctor should indicate if it contacted any part of the block. Sorry to hear about your issues. If you want any pics of this crank to compare your to let me know and I will go shoot them and post them here.
01-29-2003, 08:18 PM
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock At least you found the problem and can now move on to bigger and better things. I know your new setup will kick A**. Now stop saying things about Texas people. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
01-30-2003, 12:54 AM
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Re: Teardown report on my old 422ci ironblock John, you seem to be leaving out some of the key things, I did ask you to send the motor back so I could fix it (under warranty) for months. It was your choice to go this route.
The reluctor wheel on the crankshaft in your engine was never removed (in fact we have never removed one in this shop), Cola is the only company that sends cranks without a reluctor.
Your reluctor has probably came loose after the thrust bearing got damaged. This would cause the crank to move back enough that the reluctor would hit the block or rear cap since their close to start off with. In the end result, loosening the reluctor on the crankshaft.
The discoloring on the reluctor is from being heat-treated after the crank is stroked. This is the second time I've heard of thrust bearing failure as I just pulled a stock engine out with a bad thrust bearing, and the reluctor was touching the back of the block, but caught soon enough not to loosen it off (BugBlndr's).
I am also not sure why the thrust bearing got wiped out, but I assure you, everything was Properly checked.
This rotating was built into a block for you and was not already assembled.
I'm sorry that this project hasn't went the way we planned, but you know we stand behind our stuff and the right thing to do would have been to send the motor back so we could have diagnosed it and resolved it.
Just wanted to clear things up.
Wade
Agostino Racing Engines
<small>[ January 29, 2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: C5Wade ]</small>
The reluctor wheel on the crankshaft in your engine was never removed (in fact we have never removed one in this shop), Cola is the only company that sends cranks without a reluctor.
Your reluctor has probably came loose after the thrust bearing got damaged. This would cause the crank to move back enough that the reluctor would hit the block or rear cap since their close to start off with. In the end result, loosening the reluctor on the crankshaft.
The discoloring on the reluctor is from being heat-treated after the crank is stroked. This is the second time I've heard of thrust bearing failure as I just pulled a stock engine out with a bad thrust bearing, and the reluctor was touching the back of the block, but caught soon enough not to loosen it off (BugBlndr's).
I am also not sure why the thrust bearing got wiped out, but I assure you, everything was Properly checked.
This rotating was built into a block for you and was not already assembled.
I'm sorry that this project hasn't went the way we planned, but you know we stand behind our stuff and the right thing to do would have been to send the motor back so we could have diagnosed it and resolved it.
Just wanted to clear things up.
Wade
Agostino Racing Engines
<small>[ January 29, 2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: C5Wade ]</small>
