The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

I think the timing is an issue as well. No offense, but in the final stages before release, it wouldn't be a smart thing to give away secrets so that people would stop and go hmmmm, maybe I can try it to.

Its kind of like porting heads. I don't see many replies from the big companies when people put up a post asking how to port their heads themselves. Of course their not going to come on and give a demo and tell all of their trade secrets, that's how they make a living.

Now if the EWP had been on the market for 4 or 5 years and the demand had died down considerably, then I could understand Joe leaking some info.

Personally, I'll wait to purchase something that I know is gonna work. Some things are just worth spending the money on.


Terry, this is in no way knocking what you are doing. I fully support your desire to tinker with your car and try out your own ideas, but you can't expect help from people who are almost ready to market what you are attempting to accomplish.

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

[quote]
Does your water direction go INTO the block from the thermostat hose or out? Like I said, I know nothing about LS1 cooling systems.
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My water goes out from the water pump, through the thermostat, into the radiator.

[quote]
I have one in my hand and the spring tension is ~5 lbs. I see a .125" inch hole in the flange with a check ball in it. What does the check ball do?
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I think it's to let air bubbles pass through the stock system. That was one of the first things I drilled out when I was trying to figure my setup out. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

The problem with using a regular thermostat is that I'll have to plug/weld closed a hole inside the water pump, its some sort of high pressure bypass system built in to the thermo (that extra disk on top of the thermo). Probably not a really big deal.

If I want to make the system work with a physical thermostat I'm going to have to flip the stat around and plug the bypass hole inside the pump. I'm more interested in making it work with a variable speed control type setup. I want to be able to run those heads as cool as possible when racing. Imagine running 12.5:1 compression, full timing, and never having to buy race gas. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

Joe:

Worst case I have to wait until someone takes a picture of your pump so I can see how you route the coolant. Hopefully I'll figure out a better solution well before then. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

[quote]
Terry, this is in no way knocking what you are doing. I fully support your desire to tinker with your car and try out your own ideas, but you can't expect help from people who are almost ready to market what you are attempting to accomplish.
<hr></blockquote>

I am not expecting any help from Joe, but to be honest his attitude is making me more motivated to figure this out and give away the secret to everyone. I can do without the "nah nah I know how to fix it but won't tell" posts. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

ramairJP

iTrader: (3)

terry,

There's no way the two 3/16" holes are enough to cool the motor. If the thermo is 1", then you only have about 8% of the normal area for water to flow to cool you. I agree with the others when they say you're getting a false reading. Is everything in the system exactly reversed? I mean, does the water flow through the radiator reversed as well as the motor? I'd bet your readings are being thrown off by the cool water from the radiator, and if it's still reading 130 then the motor is very, very hot. I'd look into temp readings from several different locations as well as ATAP to find out the whole story. You definitely don't want to fry the gaskets when trying to R&D the new pump.

Whoever said that the speed of the pump doesn't matter is right. However, you can go too slow or too fast. Taking the thermo out of a standard cooling system is a no-no and will overheat the car in no time. Generally, race cars without thermos have a restrictor plate in their place to keep the water flow at a desierable place. However, I don't think water speed is the major problem... it's the temperature reading accuracy.

Best of Luck.

John

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

Visceral don't worry I'll figure it out. I really think the best setup is going to be a 160 degree stat, 3/16" hole drilled in it, and switching between 12v and some smaller voltage to keep temps not too hot and not too cool. Then a secondary "race" switch (maybe even hooked up to WOT), when you want to really push it.

ChrisB

Terry, do you just not believe <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> pump speeds are not going to make that big a difference. And depending on where you are in the effeciency curvey, a slower speed may improve your cooling.

Chris

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

I understand the bell curve. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> I am trying to slow the pump down to a point where it cools less. It's much easier than trying to speed it up to a point where it cools less. If I turn this pump slow enough it will not cool the engine, I guarantee it.

ChrisB

Yeah, but since you are doing it with linear regulation you are more likely to lower the torque output to a level where the pump will simply not spin before you have any real effect on cooling. (IMHO of course <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> ).


Chris

WS6 TransAm Girl

Terry, if I am not mistaken, you said this is your little project. Well keep it "your" little project and use your own ideas. It's no longer "your" little project when you have to look at what someone else is doing and copy it, because you haven't done enough of your own homework. Instead of having to look at pictures to copy someone else's ideas that have required hours of work, and thousands of dollars to be put into production and made perfect (which also has copyrights and patents pending)... how about you just figure it out on your own? Or else you might as well buy one of the JF/JPR electric water pumps, in essence, it would be the same thing.
And honestly, before a product is released, why in the world would they give out the inside information on the product and put their investment at risk. I don't think Joe is giving you an attitude, he is just making a good business decision and protecting his investment. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

Jay 95WS6

Terry

as a point of fact in the progression of our revisions, the first was a functionality issue,which you are going through now, and the rest have been material and cosmetic upgrades. Joe and I are not wishing you any ill will, but I think we both want to warn you that there's more to this pump than water flow, we're actually trying to do you a favor by telling you this. If we're as malicious as some are trying to make us out to be we would not share any information, and not prepare you for future issues. Here's another tip and the only other piece of proprietary information that i'm willing to share is that the key to the system is thermo dynamics

Jay

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

[quote]
Yeah, but since you are doing it with linear regulation you are more likely to lower the torque output to a level where the pump will simply not spin before you have any real effect on cooling. (IMHO of course ).
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You might be right, but I won't know for sure until I try a few more settings. There might be a DC speed control in my future. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

The way I see it is if someone can make this work with a special water pump housing, I can make it work with the stock one. If there weren't the chance I'd fail miserably this wouldn't be any fun. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

just me

Keep at it Terry.

ChrisB

Theoretically you will see a power *loss* from reverse cooling (cooler heads) unless you bump up the compression/timing (Depending on where you are) - this is unless you are already in pre-ignition/detonation.

Hotter heads are more thermally effecient, and especially with a plastic intake (where you don't even have to worry as much about heating the incoming air charge) are in theory the way to go. No in real life it's a good idea to trade a little performance for reliability. Reverse cooling should not only allow you to run cooler heads (which can be couteracted ideally by more compression, but also with more timing to an extent), but should give you more uniform cooling, reducing hotspots.

The real *if any* power gain should come from the reduced parasitic drag - which is I believe following with what you obeserved (over 5000 rpm). I would expect 5-10 rwhp from that. Anything higher than that I would attribute to a detonation/ignition condition before the pump, which was solved.


I still think your answer is going to be in the thermostat and not in pump speed. If it's cooling to much on the highway, then either the thermostat is not closing or is closing to late, or you have to much flow around the thermostat.

Your opening against coolant flow is indeed a poblem - normally the holes are drilled to prevent air bubbles from building up on the underside - if you get a layer of air it's hard to heat up the thermostat enough to open, so you have cooling/overheating problems.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great project and very interesting! I just think you are barking up the wrong tree with any kind of variable speed pump. (unless you use it to find the optimum coolant speed and then fix it there).

Chris

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

[quote]
Here's another tip and the only other piece of proprietary information that i'm willing to share is that the key to the system is thermo dynamics
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From my point of view, there are only two variables I can adjust:

1) Water routing: What you've presumably done with your custom housing is change the routing of water. I argue that the stock housing routes water ideally for reverse flow cooling, with the only exceptions being how you handle running water through the heater core and how you address factor 2. If you use a stock thermostat and are willing to wait an extra minute for your heater to come online, there is no change required to the heating system at all. "Shock" and "Heat spots" are not a problem, you simply keep a small amount of water running through the engine at all times. I.E. by drilling a small hole in the thermostat.

2) Flow: The volume and speed of water moving through the system, this is more or less fixed by the inline water pump (I understand you are using the same pump I am), the voltage to that pump, and the "thermostat".

The way I see it the keys to making my setup work is always having a small amount of water moving through the system (even when the thermostat is "closed"), and a properly calibrated thermostat.

My setup was working almost perfectly with a stock unmodified 160 degree stat, so I think I'll focus my attention more on to that path.

Having said after my latest dyno experiment I don't believe that a reserve flow electric water pump will add enough output to justify the its cost and reliability concerns.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Interesting info here, reverse cooling sounds kind of complicated.

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

The good news is I think I figured out the problem. What is working best is a 160 degree stat with two small holes drilled in it. This allows enough coolant to bypass the thermostat that I avoid the coolant shock, but not enough that the thermo never opens. The temperature at the stat is around 170 and around 140-150 at the water pump inlet with the new setup. To make it perfect I need to find a 180-190 degree thermostat.

Unfortunately I tried a couple other things that didn’t work before I figured this out, and I'm blowing some white smoke now. I either need to pull the heads, mill them, and swap gaskets, or throw my new motor in. My decision will depend on how long of a wait there is for the new motor. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

Crazyquik

Ouch, sorry to hear that Terry. No one ever said innovation was painless. Keep at it, we're all curious to see what happens.

J.

Terry Burger

iTrader: (4)

Looks like an alum 388 in my future. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> The car will be down a month or so, but I'll be looking at a nice 40rwhp/40rwtq gain. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

JS

iTrader: (4)

Well Terry,U BLEW UP YOUR MOTOR...

Joe and Jay warned u...
But I give u thumbs up for trying...

JS