MS4+ETperformance240cc heads???
TECH Resident
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 907
Likes: 1
From: NJ
Originally Posted by Phil99vette
The runner size has nothing to do with being used on a 4.0 or a 3.90 bore. My heads were setup with a 240cc runner and 3.90 bore. Jon Kaase did some testing and did not find anything to support smaller runners made more power at any RPM.
I think alot of wether the larger head will make more power also has to do with compression... a 346 with say stocking 10.5 to 1 compression, with say the 240 cc et head would probably be a little doggy on the bottom end and be a top end screamer, but the same displacment motor but say a racy 13 to 1 compression would probably benefit more from the larger CC runner voluve.
I firmly believe that the intake runner theory is BS in some rights.
First combo:
205cc - 250cfm average
230cc - 250cfm average.
The small runner wins there and I won't argue with anyone. The larger runner will have lower velocity that will not allow complete filling of the cylinders at low RPM.
Second combo
205cc - 250cfm average
230cc - 285cfm average
As long as the air is clean I'd much rather have the head that average flows 285 cfm. Tests have proven that the cylinder head with higher average airflow as long as it doesn't go turbulent will always make more HP.
Now the third combo would be:
230cc - 285cfm average
260cc - 305cfm average(dirty with lots of turbulence)
I'd rather get the 230 with clean and non turbulent airflow.
I think people try to make things too complicated. At the end of the day the cylinder head that flows the most quality air(averaged) will make the most power. Jon Kaase said that for the engine masters challenge that they reduced the runner size on their heads to find no gains on the dyno.
First combo:
205cc - 250cfm average
230cc - 250cfm average.
The small runner wins there and I won't argue with anyone. The larger runner will have lower velocity that will not allow complete filling of the cylinders at low RPM.
Second combo
205cc - 250cfm average
230cc - 285cfm average
As long as the air is clean I'd much rather have the head that average flows 285 cfm. Tests have proven that the cylinder head with higher average airflow as long as it doesn't go turbulent will always make more HP.
Now the third combo would be:
230cc - 285cfm average
260cc - 305cfm average(dirty with lots of turbulence)
I'd rather get the 230 with clean and non turbulent airflow.
I think people try to make things too complicated. At the end of the day the cylinder head that flows the most quality air(averaged) will make the most power. Jon Kaase said that for the engine masters challenge that they reduced the runner size on their heads to find no gains on the dyno.
Last edited by Phil99vette; Nov 29, 2006 at 01:00 PM.
Originally Posted by Phil99vette
So if the 240cc head can't fit on a 3.90 bore how do you explain my 346ci 240cc ET head 3400lb car going 10.4 @ 132 in 875' weather?
Originally Posted by Beaflag VonRathburg
When did I say it wouldn't fit? That's right, I didn't.
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Verdad Gallardo Origin of your confusion....
Followed by my response:
Then you decided to quote my above statement insinuating that I said it wouldn't fit and said:
My response:
Your call out:
Well, I went back and read the post.... So, in response to your inability to comprehend or read this post has been made to assist you. AKA 
. Another example of your comprehension problems, you said eamador11 made the comment, he didn't brokeTA did:
Originally Posted by eamador11
why such a big runner head?
ETP 215s are designed for 346ci...3.90 bore
ETP 215s are designed for 346ci...3.90 bore
Originally Posted by Beaflag VonRathburg
Confused, person who thinks bigger is better.
Just hang around here for a while and you'll learn all sorts of things. I know I have.
Just hang around here for a while and you'll learn all sorts of things. I know I have.
Originally Posted by Phil99vette
So if the 240cc head can't fit on a 3.90 bore how do you explain my 346ci 240cc ET head 3400lb car going 10.4 @ 132 in 875' weather?
Originally Posted by Beaflag VonRathburg
When did I say it wouldn't fit? That's right, I didn't.
Originally Posted by Phil99vette
Wow, such a tough guy. Go back and read the post, it says eamador11 made the comment. Thats right, he did.
. Another example of your comprehension problems, you said eamador11 made the comment, he didn't brokeTA did:
Originally Posted by brokeTA
well I can tell you that you will never be able to run those heads on a stock engine with the ms4. You will have major clearance issues.
Originally Posted by Beaflag VonRathburg
Confused, person who thinks bigger is better.
Just hang around here for a while and you'll learn all sorts of things. I know I have.
Just hang around here for a while and you'll learn all sorts of things. I know I have.
Originally Posted by ls1408cp
I would like to hear your engine combo since you know what is best. Phils car would pick up alot more power if you could fit a better intake on a vette.
Originally Posted by Beaflag VonRathburg
Confused, person who thinks bigger is better.
Just hang around here for a while and you'll learn all sorts of things. I know I have.
Just hang around here for a while and you'll learn all sorts of things. I know I have.
I'm not trying to say Phil is wrong in concern with heads, Phil's car is badass. 10.4 on a 200 shot in a vette is flying. Then again, like Beast96z said, his car is a track car, solid roller with big heads. It does what it was built for.
OK enough with the bitching lol
I'm just wanting to know what everyone thinks is a good combo on a stock bore LS1
I would really like to stick with that cam but I have to keep the stock valve size b/c I don't want to have to fly cut my pistons.
But if someone can give me a good combo then I could settle for a different cam
I'm thinking about getting the fast 90mm int and a zex nitrous system.(shot size ???)
I guess I could start with what do you all think is a good set of heads to get?
I'm just wanting to know what everyone thinks is a good combo on a stock bore LS1
I would really like to stick with that cam but I have to keep the stock valve size b/c I don't want to have to fly cut my pistons.
But if someone can give me a good combo then I could settle for a different cam
I'm thinking about getting the fast 90mm int and a zex nitrous system.(shot size ???)
I guess I could start with what do you all think is a good set of heads to get?
Originally Posted by Beaflag VonRathburg
This is the only time that I replied other than the ones trying to fix what Phil said. That's the only time I said anything about engines. I didn't say anything was better or worse than anything else.
That's all I said, then he decided to become confused or something and started quoting me out of context. I responded and set things straight (hopefully). I'm not trying to start arguments or anything, but it seems like some people are trying to be badass internet warriors who think they're always right.
I'm not trying to say Phil is wrong in concern with heads, Phil's car is badass. 10.4 on a 200 shot in a vette is flying. Then again, like Beast96z said, his car is a track car, solid roller with big heads. It does what it was built for.
That's all I said, then he decided to become confused or something and started quoting me out of context. I responded and set things straight (hopefully). I'm not trying to start arguments or anything, but it seems like some people are trying to be badass internet warriors who think they're always right.
I'm not trying to say Phil is wrong in concern with heads, Phil's car is badass. 10.4 on a 200 shot in a vette is flying. Then again, like Beast96z said, his car is a track car, solid roller with big heads. It does what it was built for.
Back to topic. try the TSP stage 2 heads with stock or 2.02 valves. The 230ish cfm runner should work out well. My TSP Stage 2.5/MS4.100 shot car went 11.1 at 129 with a 1.9 60 ft. Now Phils got a lot more seat time and upper rpm power than I. But it should show that a combo making 450+ with 28 mpg can be the best of both worlds. Oh I pulled a 400lb gear trailer with the damn car too.
::edit:: You know after thinking about it for a minute, The valve angle on the ETPS's and all. Why not try and have a set of 225's ported out to settle for a good compromise between the 225 and 240 cfm runner heads?
Last edited by JoeyGC5; Nov 30, 2006 at 05:59 AM.
Originally Posted by Beaflag VonRathburg
Origin of your confusion....
Followed by my response:
Then you decided to quote my above statement insinuating that I said it wouldn't fit and said:
My response:
Your call out:
Well, I went back and read the post.... So, in response to your inability to comprehend or read this post has been made to assist you. AKA . Another example of your comprehension problems, you said eamador11 made the comment, he didn't brokeTA did:
Followed by my response:
Then you decided to quote my above statement insinuating that I said it wouldn't fit and said:
My response:
Your call out:
Well, I went back and read the post.... So, in response to your inability to comprehend or read this post has been made to assist you. AKA
. Another example of your comprehension problems, you said eamador11 made the comment, he didn't brokeTA did:I assume your attention to detail is not sharp today so I'll lend a hand...
And I'll QUOTE to ensure you understand what I am highlighting...
why such a big runner head? That cant fit on a 3.90 bore.
Originally Posted by Beaflag VonRathburg
This is the only time that I replied other than the ones trying to fix what Phil said. That's the only time I said anything about engines. I didn't say anything was better or worse than anything else.
That's all I said, then he decided to become confused or something and started quoting me out of context. I responded and set things straight (hopefully). I'm not trying to start arguments or anything, but it seems like some people are trying to be badass internet warriors who think they're always right.
I'm not trying to say Phil is wrong in concern with heads, Phil's car is badass. 10.4 on a 200 shot in a vette is flying. Then again, like Beast96z said, his car is a track car, solid roller with big heads. It does what it was built for.
That's all I said, then he decided to become confused or something and started quoting me out of context. I responded and set things straight (hopefully). I'm not trying to start arguments or anything, but it seems like some people are trying to be badass internet warriors who think they're always right.
I'm not trying to say Phil is wrong in concern with heads, Phil's car is badass. 10.4 on a 200 shot in a vette is flying. Then again, like Beast96z said, his car is a track car, solid roller with big heads. It does what it was built for.
And secondly, my car is not a track only car. Its a full weight, AC/PS, DOT legal tires, full interior with stereo and cage. I've driven it to work and the track on many occassions but I prefer my F-250 for daily driving. You mention that I have big heads but if you take a step back and look at all the cylinder heads on the market they are average. The GM LS6 heads orginally were the best heads to work with and most porters ended up with 235-245cc runners flowing 305-315cfm(peak). It wasn't until AFR came out with the 205 heads did the small runner debate become heated. They offered a small runner with airflow that rivaled the bigger runners making them a great choice. The higher velocity helped cylinder filling @ low RPM and make more power. Now you take a bigger runner head with the same velocity/higher airflow, your going to get the same cylinder filling ability @ low RPM and even better potiental for higher RPM horsepower.
My solid roller is smaller than most hydro cams of today. An LSK has more lift than my solid roller and in many cases the same duration if not more. After you factor in valve lash my cam becomes a big 230s/small 240s @ ~.630s lift. I'd honestly like to try a 240/248 LSX.
Last edited by Phil99vette; Nov 30, 2006 at 08:29 AM.
Originally Posted by Phil99vette
I assume your attention to detail is not sharp today so I'll lend a hand...
And I'll QUOTE to ensure you understand what I am highlighting...
why such a big runner head? That cant fit on a 3.90 bore.
And I'll QUOTE to ensure you understand what I am highlighting...
why such a big runner head? That cant fit on a 3.90 bore.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....3&postcount=13
