MMS 229v2.1 cam only results
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Launching!
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From: Valencia, CA
MMS 229v2.1 cam only results I've been bugged to post this, for a while. I'm trying to get the customer down to Carlsbad for some track times. Nobody cares about what it runs at 2700ft <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> We just need to get a clutch in his car.
So here's the graph, track times in a week. Should be into the 11's on tire at 120+
We don't typically do the 229 as a cam only, but it was more a test to see how the stock heads respond. I think the compression is a little low for this cam. That really affects the low and mid range.
So here's the graph, track times in a week. Should be into the 11's on tire at 120+
We don't typically do the 229 as a cam only, but it was more a test to see how the stock heads respond. I think the compression is a little low for this cam. That really affects the low and mid range.
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">
__________________
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results Hey Mike the norm around here is to post your raw numbers first, then follow up in small print with the SAE numbers. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
That cam with stock heads and a yank UT4800rpm stall would _really_ rock. I hope someone tries it out soon!
That cam with stock heads and a yank UT4800rpm stall would _really_ rock. I hope someone tries it out soon!
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results uh.... wow.
On both dynos.
First is a 01' that made 350 hp with a lid, and open borla, and a pulley.
Second is the 420 rwhp from a car with stock heads. Just a year ago, we couldnt figure out how to get above 400, and only 1 person had. Now a car shows 420. I feel like Im missing something...
Congrads! , but something just seems weird. I wish my ARE stage 3 heads/hammer cam/4.10s car made that much.
\chris
On both dynos.
First is a 01' that made 350 hp with a lid, and open borla, and a pulley.
Second is the 420 rwhp from a car with stock heads. Just a year ago, we couldnt figure out how to get above 400, and only 1 person had. Now a car shows 420. I feel like Im missing something...
Congrads! , but something just seems weird. I wish my ARE stage 3 heads/hammer cam/4.10s car made that much.
\chris
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results <img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" />
Damn, I think my little 226/226 plans just changed to a 229. Congrats on the results.
Do you wanna divulge anymore info. about that cam? What lope sep. etc. And will it work with .040 cut off the heads? Maybe if I sink the exaust valves a little?
Nice job Mike. I'de like to see a redyno w/3.42 gears. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Damn, I think my little 226/226 plans just changed to a 229. Congrats on the results.
Do you wanna divulge anymore info. about that cam? What lope sep. etc. And will it work with .040 cut off the heads? Maybe if I sink the exaust valves a little?
Nice job Mike. I'de like to see a redyno w/3.42 gears. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results [quote]
Either everything MMS ever does puts out crazy numbers, or their dyno is screwed.
<hr></blockquote>
It's funny how a few MMS heads/cam cars were putting out 430-440rwhp a long time ago and everyone gave them ****. Now other vendors jump in quoting similar figures, and instead of being skeptical everyone asks them for a GP. (cough Cartech, LG, cough) <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
My heads/cam A4 car did 395rwhp on the same dyno, same day (405 locked up).
Either everything MMS ever does puts out crazy numbers, or their dyno is screwed.
<hr></blockquote>
It's funny how a few MMS heads/cam cars were putting out 430-440rwhp a long time ago and everyone gave them ****. Now other vendors jump in quoting similar figures, and instead of being skeptical everyone asks them for a GP. (cough Cartech, LG, cough) <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
My heads/cam A4 car did 395rwhp on the same dyno, same day (405 locked up).
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Thread Starter
Launching!
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From: Valencia, CA
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results JMX,
no this is a pretty special car. It was pretty impressive w/out the cam and headers. Hell when he was basically stock he was running stronger than most of the mild bolt on F-bod's at LACR.
I knew this car would be a good candidate for a cam only swap. I didn't know it would pick up over 70 RWHP from a cam and headers. Probably lost a few because of the gears too.
I'm really trying to convince him to do heads soon. Should be another 30-40RWHP.
side note: I'm doing some testing on SAE corrections and how weather conditions.
my theory is that even though #'s are corrected a car will still produce better corrected numbers when the conditions are better.
I just dyno'd one car with no changes except for weather and it was down some power. I'm doing another car to compare. Should be interesting.
no this is a pretty special car. It was pretty impressive w/out the cam and headers. Hell when he was basically stock he was running stronger than most of the mild bolt on F-bod's at LACR.
I knew this car would be a good candidate for a cam only swap. I didn't know it would pick up over 70 RWHP from a cam and headers. Probably lost a few because of the gears too.
I'm really trying to convince him to do heads soon. Should be another 30-40RWHP.
side note: I'm doing some testing on SAE corrections and how weather conditions.
my theory is that even though #'s are corrected a car will still produce better corrected numbers when the conditions are better.
I just dyno'd one car with no changes except for weather and it was down some power. I'm doing another car to compare. Should be interesting.
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TECH Junkie
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From: Los Angeles
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results Mike, If I were you I'd be tempted to examine what is so special about his motor if/when you ever end up swapping heads on it. See if his PCM has different tables, or if his car maybe got LS6 heads accidently from the factory? (dunno how that could possibly happen since f-bodies are made in a different country than y-bodies). I'm sure you understand your info is hard for us to swallow, just as I'm sure you had a hard time beleiving it when you first saw it. All this time no car gets 400rwhp with stock heads and then outta nowhere one blows that old goal out the window by 20rwhp.
Terry, I find it funny you ride MMS's ******* so much. I understand you are happy with them, I understand they are a good shop, but jeez, lay off sometimes....you'll start to sound like JS and cartek. As for the car's numbers, I dont beleive it had much to do with the cam specs....more just the car's mojo itself (whatever that may be). A huge cam never gave me more than others and I dont expect this car is any different....I'm sure a T1 or a TR224 woulda been within a few hp of it.
I'm just hessitant to beleive some dyno #'s until I see it on a dyno I know and trust, right after another car dyno's realistic numbers. I'm sure yall understand that. <img src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Terry, I find it funny you ride MMS's ******* so much. I understand you are happy with them, I understand they are a good shop, but jeez, lay off sometimes....you'll start to sound like JS and cartek. As for the car's numbers, I dont beleive it had much to do with the cam specs....more just the car's mojo itself (whatever that may be). A huge cam never gave me more than others and I dont expect this car is any different....I'm sure a T1 or a TR224 woulda been within a few hp of it.
I'm just hessitant to beleive some dyno #'s until I see it on a dyno I know and trust, right after another car dyno's realistic numbers. I'm sure yall understand that. <img src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
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From: new england
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results Mike Morgan, if this 229v2.1 is the same cam i just picked up, you are going to get cam swap only feedback on a stock 2001 Z28 m6(free ram air and maf descreen) I couldnt be more impressed with the power#'s you put down.Im more interested in track times than dyno but i will spread the good news if i get any come April! <img src="graemlins/camaro.gif" border="0" alt="[Chevrolet]" />
Thread Starter
Launching!
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From: Valencia, CA
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results JMX,
Why don't you try out our 229 cam <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
I don't know about the car, but I do know we picked up over 70RWHP with cam and headers.
That may make you a believer!! <img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" />
Aren't you the official LS1 cam tester!!
Why don't you try out our 229 cam <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
I don't know about the car, but I do know we picked up over 70RWHP with cam and headers.
That may make you a believer!! <img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" />
Aren't you the official LS1 cam tester!!
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results Yeah, those #'s are definately very hard to swallow....What is so "special" about this car that it is making more than 90% of all other Heads/cam LS1's? No flames towards you Mike, but thats a LOT of power and to believe it came out of a stock headed motor.
Terry, get off Mike's *****. Your car isn't at all impressive. I guess you're the only slow one <img src="gr_tounge.gif" border="0">
Terry, get off Mike's *****. Your car isn't at all impressive. I guess you're the only slow one <img src="gr_tounge.gif" border="0">
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From: Nawf Carolina
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results [quote]I'm sure you understand your info is hard for us to swallow, just as I'm sure you had a hard time beleiving it when you first saw it. All this time no car gets 400rwhp with stock heads and then outta nowhere one blows that old goal out the window by 20rwhp.<hr></blockquote>
There have been cars with the T1 to dyno over 400 rwhp. Add 8 degrees of duration, some lift, faster ramps, it all makes a difference, IMO. Almost everyone I've seen makes more power, at a higher rpm, with a bigger cam if the rest of the setup matches it. Maybe instead of this one car being a ringer, you just got a dud. Maybe both, maybe this is the high end of the tolerences and you got the low end.
An LG cam dynos ~390 thru an unlocked converter but no one can believe this cam in a manual dynos 420?
J.
There have been cars with the T1 to dyno over 400 rwhp. Add 8 degrees of duration, some lift, faster ramps, it all makes a difference, IMO. Almost everyone I've seen makes more power, at a higher rpm, with a bigger cam if the rest of the setup matches it. Maybe instead of this one car being a ringer, you just got a dud. Maybe both, maybe this is the high end of the tolerences and you got the low end.
An LG cam dynos ~390 thru an unlocked converter but no one can believe this cam in a manual dynos 420?
J.
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Launching!
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From: Valencia, CA
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results [quote]Originally posted by Smoke_ur_5.0:
<strong>Man that car is a SLUG under 4500rpm!</strong><hr></blockquote>
So what does your RPM drop to when you shift??
With 4.10's and some traction do you really think it would matter, or how bout a car running a 4400+stall, or how bout a car that is only on street radials, that already has problems hooking.
Like I said with stock compression/heads it gives up quite a bit down low. Plus he is running through a 2 1/2" Ypipe. A 3" Y would pick up the torque from 3000-4500 RPM.
<strong>Man that car is a SLUG under 4500rpm!</strong><hr></blockquote>
So what does your RPM drop to when you shift??
With 4.10's and some traction do you really think it would matter, or how bout a car running a 4400+stall, or how bout a car that is only on street radials, that already has problems hooking.
Like I said with stock compression/heads it gives up quite a bit down low. Plus he is running through a 2 1/2" Ypipe. A 3" Y would pick up the torque from 3000-4500 RPM.
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Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results Mike, well, I've already tried enough cams to have made up my mind. Anywhere from a 218/224 with low lift to a 230/230 with .570'ish lift. Different LSAs, different lobes etc....If I still had my camaro maybe I'd take you up on that challenge, but since I'm now in my Corvette I'm not exactly wanting to change cams as often....doesnt look much fun to remove the extra stuff (steering rack mainly) each time.
I just wanna know whats special about that car. Try its stock heads on another car that dyno's normal numbers, or maybe try its PCM on another car. Maybe its the shortblock? I dunno....but I'd love to finally hear why some cars are beasts and some are duds.
Jon
"official LS1 cam tester" <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
I just wanna know whats special about that car. Try its stock heads on another car that dyno's normal numbers, or maybe try its PCM on another car. Maybe its the shortblock? I dunno....but I'd love to finally hear why some cars are beasts and some are duds.
Jon
"official LS1 cam tester" <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
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From: Los Angeles
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results [quote]Originally posted by Crazyquik:
<strong>
There have been cars with the T1 to dyno over 400 rwhp. Add 8 degrees of duration, some lift, faster ramps, it all makes a difference, IMO. Almost everyone I've seen makes more power, at a higher rpm, with a bigger cam if the rest of the setup matches it. Maybe instead of this one car being a ringer, you just got a dud. Maybe both, maybe this is the high end of the tolerences and you got the low end.
An LG cam dynos ~390 thru an unlocked converter but no one can believe this cam in a manual dynos 420?
J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, and every local car must be a dud too. I wanna see LG cars dyno at MTI or here in austin, just like I wanna see some MMS cars dyno here or at austin.
Just like people can get some great times at HRP, maybe some shops have the HRP of dyno's.
I'm not participating in this thread to stir trouble, I'm participating (and questioning the info) to see just WHY some cars are like this, and I'm not convinced its that magic camshaft. If it was just the cam, everybody all over the country would have 420 at the wheels now. If its something else, I'd like to know....certainly no other non standard parts on that car.
When people write off awesome numbers to a "combo" just clicking, I think thats a cop out. What combo is there? There are so few variables right now...everybody is using a 2001+ intake, his heads are the same we all have, and a long tube is a long tube for the most part...plenty of others have TTS's without making crazy numbers like that. So whats that leave to make the magic "combo"? The cam or the tuning...and I dont think its the cam.
<strong>
There have been cars with the T1 to dyno over 400 rwhp. Add 8 degrees of duration, some lift, faster ramps, it all makes a difference, IMO. Almost everyone I've seen makes more power, at a higher rpm, with a bigger cam if the rest of the setup matches it. Maybe instead of this one car being a ringer, you just got a dud. Maybe both, maybe this is the high end of the tolerences and you got the low end.
An LG cam dynos ~390 thru an unlocked converter but no one can believe this cam in a manual dynos 420?
J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, and every local car must be a dud too. I wanna see LG cars dyno at MTI or here in austin, just like I wanna see some MMS cars dyno here or at austin.
Just like people can get some great times at HRP, maybe some shops have the HRP of dyno's.
I'm not participating in this thread to stir trouble, I'm participating (and questioning the info) to see just WHY some cars are like this, and I'm not convinced its that magic camshaft. If it was just the cam, everybody all over the country would have 420 at the wheels now. If its something else, I'd like to know....certainly no other non standard parts on that car.
When people write off awesome numbers to a "combo" just clicking, I think thats a cop out. What combo is there? There are so few variables right now...everybody is using a 2001+ intake, his heads are the same we all have, and a long tube is a long tube for the most part...plenty of others have TTS's without making crazy numbers like that. So whats that leave to make the magic "combo"? The cam or the tuning...and I dont think its the cam.
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From: new england
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results Well it sounds like 2 reputable LS1 performance shops are suscribing to the "big cam theory" maybe there is something to it. I agree with Mikes come back for "dog under 4500 rpm" comment.
And if you read graph, cammed setup actually beat non cammed torque from 3000 rpm up, not 4500! <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
And if you read graph, cammed setup actually beat non cammed torque from 3000 rpm up, not 4500! <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
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Launching!
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From: Valencia, CA
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results [quote]Originally posted by Damian:
<strong>Yeah, those #'s are definately very hard to swallow....What is so "special" about this car that it is making more than 90% of all other Heads/cam LS1's? No flames towards you Mike, but thats a LOT of power and to believe it came out of a stock headed motor.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree, that's why I show the before #'s. The car was strong before the cam and headers too.
It's not about the numbers, but more about the change.
If the car dyno'd 335 before(pretty common) and dyno'd 410 afterwards I'd be just as happy because of the total gain.
<strong>Yeah, those #'s are definately very hard to swallow....What is so "special" about this car that it is making more than 90% of all other Heads/cam LS1's? No flames towards you Mike, but thats a LOT of power and to believe it came out of a stock headed motor.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree, that's why I show the before #'s. The car was strong before the cam and headers too.
It's not about the numbers, but more about the change.
If the car dyno'd 335 before(pretty common) and dyno'd 410 afterwards I'd be just as happy because of the total gain.
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From: Nawf Carolina
Re: MMS 229v2.1 cam only results I see your point. I think there may be forces at work that aren't obvious on the surface. Everyone writes off the Hotcam as being down compared to many single patterns, but your own friend dynoed 394? rwhp with it. Maybe Mike is just that good at the tuning of the setup, could you agree with that?
Even if the dyno is an optimistic one, it still showed a 70 rwhp gain.
J.
Even if the dyno is an optimistic one, it still showed a 70 rwhp gain.
J.