TexassTA

Gonna have to lock this thread. OOOPS, I forgot that I`m on the "Cool' site .Never mind!! Gotta love LS1 TECH. <img src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" border="0" alt="[hail]" />

1 Bad Z

iTrader: (8)

Ethan, I noticed the picture that you posted with the weld mark, and you said that was not there when patterson recieved it. That weld is covering up a crack, they did not cut through the block. Let me explain.(From my experience) The LS1 has "blind" headbolt holes, meaning, one way in, one way out not all the way through. From the few cracked blocks that i have seen, what causes these cracks,(which look identical to the one on your block) is when a cylinder head is bolted on and the coolant/water/head gasket material etc. is not blown out of these holes before the headbolt is torqued down. You can't compress a liquid, therefore the block cracks. Just FYI.....

I would bet that it's not your original block, but most machine shops don't use your block they just take it as a core. More than likely it's an old heads/cam block that someone made this mistake on.

Mike

MastaAce98

iTrader: (1)

Mike,

Thanks a lot for this very valuable information! I had no idea. This explains why the block was leaking as much water as it was. I appreciate the explanation. I'm keeping close documentation of everything that everyone has noted. If anyone has any more comments....please keep them coming!

Ethan

MastaAce98

iTrader: (1)

I've been doing business with Xcessive for over 4 years, and I showed all of this information to Chris. I basically got a, "Sorry to hear that....that's part of racing." story. But, it's not part of racing. Nor, was any offer made to correct the situation. I also got a, "Well, the car has been running great for 10 months. It must've been something that you did wrong." Obviously not since I didn't build the short block. I went to Patterson since he and I had exchanged dialogue quite a few times, and I used to go by his shop all the time. Since I was in good relations with Patterson it wasn't a big deal. Also, when I asked Xcessive for bearings for my motor, they suggested that I call Patterson to get them. So, in this case I think that I was ok going to Patterson.

You know....back when I went to Patterson and showed him everything that was wrong. I would've been completely fine with him just paying for my new JE Pistons...because that's basically what I asked him for. But, at this point it is too late...especially after all of the rumors that he has spread around town.

What's funny is that Patterson Automotive built another motor for Xcessive a month or two ago and used the correct pistons....but didn't key the crank!! Does it ever end?

E

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: MastaAce98 ]</p>

JayLS1-327

iTrader: (2)

"What's funny is that Patterson Automotive built another motor for Xcessive a month or two ago and used the correct pistons....but didn't key the crank!! Does it ever end?"

My question is why is Xcessive still using Patterson, they are obviously incompetent.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Key the crank for a supercharged application?

Sounds like you could have gotten better service from Xcessive, if a motor is not put together right it will come apart. Not necessarily in a month or two, but eventually... Kind of like your motor.

BADZ

iTrader: (5)

Well Ethan, I can believe anything now day's but I will not trust anyone but just a few people on my car's needs. My car's last street race about 3+ months ago was with you and later I figured out that number 6, the rod was shattered and a number of valves were bent, starter was broke block was f_cked. My engine now is on its way to perfection with the guy's I have chosen to assemble it. I guess you can say the guy's arent your everyday tom, dick, or harry or "PATTERSON" in that respect. I can say that if you were done like this then you definetly need some compensation for the whole deal and I hope you hold his ball sack to the coals because I would. I hope we will be able to run again, "You and I" when are car's are feeling a little better. My car will continue to have it's stock displacement but with some better parts. Good luck with your quest and keep us up to date with this sorry *** rip off Automotive place!!!!!!!!! <img src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

I would not have gone directly to Patterson since you purchased the motor from Xcessive. Surely Chris from Xcessive would have followed up with Craig Patterson and gotten a solution.

xcessive

OK Since my name has now been brought up here I guess I need to clear up a few points.
1)Ethan was fully aware that his Patterson built 402 was built with SRP small block Chevy Pistons. The 427 that he was also quoted a price for was more expensive (a small issue) and would take longer (more of an issue) because of the custom JE Pistons. Ring any bells Ethan?
2)Valve reliefs are cut in pistons to solve piston to valve clearance problems. The 402 that Patterson built and we installed for Ethan had no P to V issues. It ran very well for long time with the snot being beat out of it.
3)When installing new Big Valve Cylinder Heads and Giant Solid Roller Cam any knowledgeable engine builder will tell you Piston to Valve Clearence must be checked. I even told Ethan this when I learned what he was up to. Obviously this was not checked before you turned the key and sent your new valves being moved by your new cam into you old pistons that had not moved in over a year. And now your mad at Patterson? Thats like being hit in the head with a baseball bat, and being mad at the bat instead of the person that hit you.
Now I could see you being upset if you were told you got Custom JE's and paid for JE's, but got SRP's. But this was not the case. It is installer error when you don't check P to V when putting a new top end combo together and crash valves into pistons.
As for the rest of the problems you say you have with the shortblock after over a year of abuse, if you ever keep a motor in your car as long as the 402 lets see some pictures of that. Race motors get tired with daily abuse. Poorly built motors can only last a couple weeks. How long did that new motor last. I hear its out now.

Chris
Xcessive Performance

JasonShort

iTrader: (242)

It definatly sucks to hear things like this.

I have 2 questions (everything else aside):

1.) The compression issue. If it was 13:1 then I see that being the fault of the engine builder for the reasons of not knowing the LS1. This is unless the customer (Ethan) specifically asked for that high of compression. Didnt Patterson even say that they thought the LS1 was reverse cooled? Big problem there.

2.) Piston to valve clearence. I totally agree that a person need to check piston to valve clearence each time a "bigger" cam is installed (unless the obvious where someone is putting say a T1 in a stock shortblock kind of thing). Piston to valve interface is not so much directly related to the lift of the cam but by its duration. This leads me to believe that Patterson did not leave the required (at least) .100" piston to valve clearence with the motor when it left their shop. Something sounds kinda fishy there. This is just an opinion of mine...I am by no means making any statements of fact here.

It would be interesting to know the deck height on the block, as well as how much the heads have been/were milled on that engine. I think that info would open up a few areas to look further into.

Sorry to hear about all the probs....been through it myself with a shop before.

Jason

MastaAce98

iTrader: (1)

Chris,

I knew it would be a matter of time before you replied, so I would also like to clarify a few points.

1) If you have a head with 15 degree valves, why in the hell would you use a 23 degree piston? There is OBVIOUSLY some reason why Patterson did it....so please explain. Don't say it was because of money, because you and I both know I don't have a problem spending money if I'm getting a GOOD PRODUCT. To me it just sounds like pure ignorance on Patterson's part about LS1's. It's also very funny how Don's motor came with 15 degree pistons with the CORRECT valve reliefs. You mean to tell me this is because he ordered JE pistons? I think not. I called JE and I asked them all of these questions...so Iknow what I am talking about.

2) I was never quoted a price on a 427. We spoke about two different motors, a 383 stroker-kit from Lunati (which at the time was unavailable) and a 402 stroker which you said would take more time, but would end up being more beneficial in the long run. However, I did not get what I paid for. I paid for a 402 and got a 409. Like I said, not that it matters...but even you the merchant are mistaken on the actual size of the motor. The pistons were 4.030 pistons, not 4.000. If it was a question of piston availability...that shouldn't have been an issue. I got my new pistons in 3 days. If I can get my pistons in 3 days, why can't you?

3) You are speaking out of ignorance here Chris. When I took the heads off the first time, there were already valve marks in the heads with a .570" lift cam. I considered this to be since the CompCams 941 valvesprings were old. However, even with *CORRECT* valve reliefs, the valve should've dropped into the relief, not into the corner of it. Maybe you should look at the pictures I posted before you jump to conclusions. Do you realize that there are heads/cam cars with STOCK PISTONS running more than .570" lift? You told me that I was at the limit of what I could run on those pistons. That's a real shame, especially on a stroker motor since I already spent a lot of money (or so I thought)

4) How many times did it take you to make that 454 right? That motor blew up three times because the crank was out of balance over 180 grams. But, I guess that's what the customer paid for...rotating balance assembley probably was extra and the customer didn't want to pay and wait to have it done <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . That's one of the things you do when you build a rotating assembley is balance the crank...anybod knows that.

Chris...I am very appauled that you would even stoop to the level to post something like this, and shows the lack of professionalism of Xcessive Performance. I guess this is why you are closing down. Xcessive Performance has never been a customer-oriented company, and never will be. You can build the greatest stuff in the world but if your customer service sucks...you will go down. I guess that's why MTI has been so successful, and this is also why I didn't bring my motor back to you guys to build whenever it broke.

Yes, the motor is out of the car right now. You know why? Becuase it has *TWO* dropped sleeves, a CRACK in the block which tried to be covered up by being welded. The whole inside of the motor was basically burnt oil. Why in the hell should I have to run 15w30 in order to maintain oil pressure on a motor that is two months old? You do remember me changing oil don't you? The bearings were *SHOT* when we pulled them out. A motor that is one year old shouldn't have bearings worn down 4 layers deep. How many times did we run block sealant through there while I was at the shop? Yeah....exactly. Great motor there.

Have you seen the motor Chris? Did you even look at the pictures that I posted? Probably not otherwise you wouldn't be saying the things you did. Those pictures were taken right after we pulled the motor out because of the piston issue. Bottom line is, if I pay $12,000 in parts / labor for a motor to be done correctly, it should be done correctly. Using SBC pistons in an LS1 motor is NOT DONE CORRECTLY....period, no matter how you cut it. You say that I "abused" the motor, however I took better care of that one than I did my stock motor. With all of the forged parts, it should last well over 1 year. Those parts are built to take "abuse" as you call it, however the motor had maybe 40-45 passes on it at the track, plus the occasional street race. In no way should it have been in the condition that it was in....period. A "race" motor as you so called it wasn't what was given to me. I don't call a motor that the max lift I can run on it is .580" lift. That's absurd, you should know better.

I also think it is unacceptable that a 409 (or 402) makes 430rwhp. Do you realize that there are heads/cam cars making 415-420rwhp? Hell, a heads/cam car that Velocity built made over 415rwhp on your dyno last week. What does that say for your stroker motors that are making 430rwhp? I would hope that for $12,000 I would make more than 15rwhp over a stock displacement motor. Hell, there's 382's on this web-board making over 430rwhp all day long. That's pretty unacceptable if you ask me.

Ethan

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: MastaAce98 ]</p>

Blake-vortech

I'am sure Westside has never screwed up a engine!!! I had a buddy send a 5.0 block to Westside he got it back bored and decked and honed. It had all kinds of cracks in it. Bascially garbage. They never said a word. GO figure.

Blake

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Chris, your reply does not make any sense. WHY would anyone (Ethan) ever agree to let you build a motor with the incorrect pistons? I can understand the valve reliefs not being an issue if you were using a ***** cam with no lift, therefore no P/V issues, but then why not just use some SBC pistons which are flat-top or reverse domed instead of those generic twin relief pistons? If you didn't need reliefs for your original setup, then why have pistons with reliefs in the first place, especially WRONG ones?

That makes no sense.

And, I can verify that Ethan's 409ci setup was a TURD when it was first completed. The week he got it back he raced against me on the beltway and it was dead even both times, from a roll. This was back when I was only putting down 400-405 rwhp with a stage 2 heads/cam setup! He was so confused that he even thought I might have had my 382ci installed already. Nope! (sorry for bringing up the bad memory Ethan <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> )

Tony

MastaAce98

iTrader: (1)

Tony,

You bring up a very excellent point, which is what I was trying to explain to a friend of mine. Stock LS1 pistons are completely flat, with no valve reliefs. There are people all over the country running small duration .580+ lift cams. In fact, many people are finding that with the correct combination you can get real close to .600" lift if the ramps make the valves open/close fast enough. My original cam as I noted earlier had .539/.547 lift on the cam. With the 1.8 RR's it bumped the lift to .570/.579. Still....that isn't that big. You and I both know that, so it's nothing new. Either way, wrong pistons with wrong valve reliefs is the same thing as a piston with NO valve reliefs.

Also...no harm done my friend on the bad memories. That was still probably one of the best races I've ever had, yet it makes me sick that you still had heads/cam and I was with a 409ci stroker motor. What's funny is earlier that day I had just laid down 410rwhp on the dyno, so the numbers explain why we were so close together.

Shoot me a private e-mail and we can talk more about this stuff.

Ethan

One Monkey

Chris.
The piston for Ethan car was shipped to us in 3 days.... And Ethan had no problem paying 50% mark up too have them. So bouth your time excuse and your money Excuse Is plain and simple BS.
You really think it an excuse too tell every one that you put the small block Chevy piston in a LS1. Well the fact that you even think that thats not a problem!! Is the reason people like Ethan has a problem.
As for the reason the block is out of the car is just a other reason that you are all about BS.
The New motor needed another tranny, (Tranny being too weak).
Because Ethan car was going to be down for the tranny fix. Ethan ask me too fix the block problem that You guys refuse too fix. So I pulled the motor back out. (So this guy that you siad was too cheap to spend the extra $400 on his $7000 motor did not mined) wasting a new set of bearings and rings and pulling a perfectly running motor too fix a long and fustrating problem. he could of continued filling it with block selant and would be racing this weekend.
Now lots of other shops had problems in the early day with leaking blocks. So thats not too bad. But how many of them do you think is telling the costumer tough here's a bottle of Block sealant. use this twice a month.
As for the way the motor look. maybe thats normal for you guys, but I will take the challenge I will pull the motor from Ethans car in a year, and we will see what it looks like. I am placing a bet here now that
1) My floating piston will still be floating. (not press fit like yours where)
2) cylinder wall will not look like Like I sanded it 60 grit. from the pistons.
3) I Will not need 15w30 too get the car too have 40PSI at 6000RPM.

Bye the way your list of the stuff on the motor that need to fix was very long If you need me too post all of them so you can explain to everyone how that is Ethans fualt I will. JUST let me know but in the mean while here is another one for you to keep everyone entertained. Explain, How many time did you guys replace head gaskets on the car.
Tip from the Monkey. If you run a 4.030 ID head gasket with a 4.030 bore you WILL HAVE a problem.
But of course you figuer the motor had a 4.00 bore right. I guess.

I am not tring too be ugly, I am not tring to point finguers. I just think it's a shitty deal that you handed the guy and even ******* that you would act like it's none of your fault. As if he deserved all this for shopping with you guys.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: One Monkey ]</p>

MastaAce98

iTrader: (1)

Brent, I couldn't have said it better myself. You know what though, let's humor everyone and post everything that was wrong with the motor so that everyone can see what was wrong. I would hate for someone else to run across the same amount of problems that I did, and also so that people can understand what these two shops think is a "working" motor. Yeah it was working, but would it have lasted any longer than a year? I doubt it.

If you have time, go ahead and post in detail.


Thanks,

E

BADZ

iTrader: (5)

<strong>Damn, this is gettin good...

This is really bad ****!!!!

Glad I never had Patterson touch my ****!!!

It's like having a "GY" do Engineering...

<img src="gr_sad.gif" border="0"> </strong>[/QUOTE]

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: BADZ ]</p>

LJ_Z28

Ethan, could you send me an e-mail with some price info from the guy that did the work for you???

Thanks,

Carlos

P.S. When do you want me to take ya drinking and get ya some girls??? I owe ya big time... <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

jmX

[quote]Originally posted by xcessive:
<strong>OK Since my name has now been brought up here I guess I need to clear up a few points.
1)Ethan was fully aware that his Patterson built 402 was built with SRP small block Chevy Pistons. The 427 that he was also quoted a price for was more expensive (a small issue) and would take longer (more of an issue) because of the custom JE Pistons. Ring any bells Ethan?
2)Valve reliefs are cut in pistons to solve piston to valve clearance problems. The 402 that Patterson built and we installed for Ethan had no P to V issues. It ran very well for long time with the snot being beat out of it.
3)When installing new Big Valve Cylinder Heads and Giant Solid Roller Cam any knowledgeable engine builder will tell you Piston to Valve Clearence must be checked. I even told Ethan this when I learned what he was up to. Obviously this was not checked before you turned the key and sent your new valves being moved by your new cam into you old pistons that had not moved in over a year. And now your mad at Patterson? Thats like being hit in the head with a baseball bat, and being mad at the bat instead of the person that hit you.
Now I could see you being upset if you were told you got Custom JE's and paid for JE's, but got SRP's. But this was not the case. It is installer error when you don't check P to V when putting a new top end combo together and crash valves into pistons.
As for the rest of the problems you say you have with the shortblock after over a year of abuse, if you ever keep a motor in your car as long as the 402 lets see some pictures of that. Race motors get tired with daily abuse. Poorly built motors can only last a couple weeks. How long did that new motor last. I hear its out now.

Chris
Xcessive Performance</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just quoting this so he cant go and delete/edit his post. This is just obsurd. Nobody should build or stand behind a motor with the totally wrong valve releifs...period...even if they aren't needed with the small cam that may have been in there. People change cams all the time, the motor should have been built properly so this could have been an option. If patterson hadn't fooked up, ethan wouldnt have had to check P/V clearance on his cam that by all means should have cleared just fine with releived pistons with no concerns what so ever....unfortunatly neither you nor patterson could be trusted to do a good proper job so ethan's left out in the cold.

MastaAce98

iTrader: (1)

Just to clear something up (yet again). I have been getting a lot of notes from people about the timing chain slipping and/or breaking. The timing chain did not slip nor did it break. If it did, the damage would have been much more catastrophic than it was. I would have had 16 broken valves, not 1. I will let Brent elaborate on this more, but I just had to bring that up.

E