Cam selection advice
Originally Posted by RAACCR
The most important event in choosing a camshaft is determining when the intake valve closes.
If you are leaving everything else in the motor stock (shortblock, heads, headgaskets), your intake valve closing (IVC) point is the only tool you'll have to affect your DCR. (You won't be able to make your DCR too high with just a cam swap unless you close the intake valve crazy early!) IVC will also be the biggest determining factor affecting where in the rpm range your motor makes power. The earlier you close the valve, the higher your DCR and the more low to mid range power. Conversely, the later you close the intake valve, the lower the DCR and more top end power.
The intake manifold design will try to force a torque peak around 4800rpm, and a horsepower peak around 6200rpm. You can vary your IVC to move this up or down slightly, but you don't want to go too far in either direction or you'll wind up with a mismatch of components that are "fighting" each other. Pick a cam with an IVC around 40 degrees after bottom dead center (ABDC) @ 0.050" for best low end to mid range. Or, try one with a IVC around 45 degrees ABDC (@ 0.050") for a top end monster.
If you are leaving everything else in the motor stock (shortblock, heads, headgaskets), your intake valve closing (IVC) point is the only tool you'll have to affect your DCR. (You won't be able to make your DCR too high with just a cam swap unless you close the intake valve crazy early!) IVC will also be the biggest determining factor affecting where in the rpm range your motor makes power. The earlier you close the valve, the higher your DCR and the more low to mid range power. Conversely, the later you close the intake valve, the lower the DCR and more top end power.
The intake manifold design will try to force a torque peak around 4800rpm, and a horsepower peak around 6200rpm. You can vary your IVC to move this up or down slightly, but you don't want to go too far in either direction or you'll wind up with a mismatch of components that are "fighting" each other. Pick a cam with an IVC around 40 degrees after bottom dead center (ABDC) @ 0.050" for best low end to mid range. Or, try one with a IVC around 45 degrees ABDC (@ 0.050") for a top end monster.
ok again i ask, what cam would give me what i want..
The car is not a DD anymore. 100% street car WITH the exception of seeing the track 1 or 2 times a year. i like to do roll races: any where from 20 mph, 40 and 55 mph. go till who ever lets off. will prolly go with a 3.73 gear with a 12 bolt. Car is a M6. All other mods are in the sig..
so what is a good cam? Again STOCK NON P&P HEADS
i want the cam to make the power low/mid with some top end pull
So what are my options?
I was referring to this part of one of your posts in this thread. A TR224 is a cam.
A Trak is a cam.
A Comp XE-R is a lobe pattern. You know. There are XE, XE-R, LSK. They have a given lift for a given duration.
Originally Posted by TORCHD 02 TA
...anyways.. i was thinking:
TR224, TRak or Comp XER
TR224, TRak or Comp XER
A Trak is a cam.
A Comp XE-R is a lobe pattern. You know. There are XE, XE-R, LSK. They have a given lift for a given duration.
Originally Posted by N4cer
Why would you focus on bottom end hp when you want to roll race? If it peaks higher, you'd be making more hp overall. Gotta spin it to win races.
roll races are any where from mid low and mid then go up to top end. i really do not go past 100 when racing.
what do you suggest then?
You must be roll racing different from how we do. Here, we choose the gear that makes the most HP at the speed we're racing from. And since peak HP occurs over 6k on almost every LS1 known to man, why in the world would we choose a gear that puts us at low mid or mid rpm? Might as well just hit the brake.
What I suggest is you deciding what you can tolerate to drive. Personally, I like the Patrick G torquer cam for your application. 224/228 on LSK lobes. I think it's a 110 +4, but you'd have to look it up in the "torque coming out of my ears" thread. You'd have to upgrade your springs and pushrods, but that's a requirement for any worthwhile cam upgrade.
What I suggest is you deciding what you can tolerate to drive. Personally, I like the Patrick G torquer cam for your application. 224/228 on LSK lobes. I think it's a 110 +4, but you'd have to look it up in the "torque coming out of my ears" thread. You'd have to upgrade your springs and pushrods, but that's a requirement for any worthwhile cam upgrade.
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Joined: Sep 2005
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Comp XER 224/228 110 +2 would close the intake valve at 40 ABDC and be very stong througout the rpm range, but should be shifted by 6500rpm.
Comp XER 228/232 110 +2 would close at 42 ABDC and pull higher & stronger at the top end, without giving up too much down low. Probably a pretty good compromise, especially for a later model shortblock that can rev a little higher (better rod bolts and oiling compared to early LS1 motors).
If you want the ultimate top end monster, call any of the popular supporting vendors and ask 'em for the biggest bumpstick they've got that will fit under stock heads without fly cutting.
Comp XER 228/232 110 +2 would close at 42 ABDC and pull higher & stronger at the top end, without giving up too much down low. Probably a pretty good compromise, especially for a later model shortblock that can rev a little higher (better rod bolts and oiling compared to early LS1 motors).
If you want the ultimate top end monster, call any of the popular supporting vendors and ask 'em for the biggest bumpstick they've got that will fit under stock heads without fly cutting.
Originally Posted by N4cer
....Personally, I like the Patrick G torquer cam for your application. 224/228 on LSK lobes. I think it's a 110 +4, but you'd have to look it up in the "torque coming out of my ears" thread. You'd have to upgrade your springs and pushrods, but that's a requirement for any worthwhile cam upgrade.
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I was in the same boat as you about a year ago. After talking to Pradator-Z we came up with a few numbers that helped out a lot. If you are looking for a "universal cam" go with the 224/228 114 XER comp cam (although in my opinion the Patrick G cam mentioned above is much better!!). I say universal because you rarely hear someone saying its too big. Plus you will not have to worry about the cars street manners as much. If you drive a car with a bigger cam at times it will try to jump forward on you (buck/surge). It kind of feels like someone tapped your gas pedal unexpectedly and gave you a quick jolt slightly forward/ backward. You also have to take vibration and noise into account when you pick your cam. I have sat in bigger cammed cars that will shake the change out of your pocket. .
If it helps I went with a custom grind 228/232 .588/.595 110+1 HR lobed (basically XER) comp cam. It got me 420rwhp 371rwtq on motor through an A4. The cam is a little harder on streetability, but most people that drive my car dont notice once the car warms up. It does vibrate more than it use to, and I cant hear my radio, but I got use to it. The only problem with cams is that once you buy one you usually want to go bigger. The best suggestion is to ride along or drive a cammed car. You will be suprised how many people on here in your area will help you. Oh, and a good tuner goes a long way with cams. If you go bigger make sure you have one before you have it installed. Hope that helps
If it helps I went with a custom grind 228/232 .588/.595 110+1 HR lobed (basically XER) comp cam. It got me 420rwhp 371rwtq on motor through an A4. The cam is a little harder on streetability, but most people that drive my car dont notice once the car warms up. It does vibrate more than it use to, and I cant hear my radio, but I got use to it. The only problem with cams is that once you buy one you usually want to go bigger. The best suggestion is to ride along or drive a cammed car. You will be suprised how many people on here in your area will help you. Oh, and a good tuner goes a long way with cams. If you go bigger make sure you have one before you have it installed. Hope that helps
you need to make a decision though, do you want good low end torque and good low end-mid range power or do you want to make 400+ rwhp on stock heads? This will determine your cam selection. If you dont think you will be spinning the motor to 6500+ rpms then go with a smaller cam, like say an fm-13, 228/232, tr228, g5x2, torquer v2/v3 etc. If you want to have 400+ rwhp cam only then go with a g5x3 or ms3, but I would personally choose the G5X3 out of those two.
Originally Posted by N4cer
Personally, I like the Patrick G torquer cam for your application. 224/228 on LSK lobes. I think it's a 110 +4, but you'd have to look it up in the "torque coming out of my ears" thread.
Hammer
I'm playing around with my DCR calculator, and this looks more reasonable:
228/232 .588/.595 112+4 XER lobes
I get a much better DCR (8.15) while looking to retain some top end. Is there a current cam running similiar to this with dyno graphs available?
EDIT: On doing some research, I think I'm looking towards a Torquer v2 now.
Specs: 232/234 .595/.598 112, 113, or 114, XER lobes.
Question being, what LSA/advance do I want with it? Playing around with my DCR calculator again, it looks like either 113+4 or 112+4 will work nicely.
Do you see any tuning issues with the 113+4 or 112+4?
228/232 .588/.595 112+4 XER lobes
I get a much better DCR (8.15) while looking to retain some top end. Is there a current cam running similiar to this with dyno graphs available?
EDIT: On doing some research, I think I'm looking towards a Torquer v2 now.
Specs: 232/234 .595/.598 112, 113, or 114, XER lobes.
Question being, what LSA/advance do I want with it? Playing around with my DCR calculator again, it looks like either 113+4 or 112+4 will work nicely.
Do you see any tuning issues with the 113+4 or 112+4?
Last edited by Toasty; Jan 11, 2007 at 01:02 PM.
Well, yeah. The smaller cam will do that. Becuase it closes the intake valve earlier. Which means it does so at the expense of top-end power. And top-end is where you win a race. High RPMs.
If I can still hit 400whp, then I'll probably be fine with it. Like I said, anything that peaks over 6500 isn't really useful to me. I'd prefer 6400 peak on the Torquer, I think.
Originally Posted by Toasty
If I can still hit 400whp, then I'll probably be fine with it. Like I said, anything that peaks over 6500 isn't really useful to me. I'd prefer 6400 peak on the Torquer, I think.
Curve is nice, but why would your X3 not peak right around 6400? I know mine does. As Predator-Z has pointed out in the past, that's where most of the cams will peak because of our intakes. But if it peaks at 6400rpm, you're still gonna be shifting over 6600rpm, unless it falls of retardedly fast. Shifting at peak would waste power.
Originally Posted by N4cer
You must be roll racing different from how we do. Here, we choose the gear that makes the most HP at the speed we're racing from. And since peak HP occurs over 6k on almost every LS1 known to man, why in the world would we choose a gear that puts us at low mid or mid rpm? Might as well just hit the brake.
What I suggest is you deciding what you can tolerate to drive. Personally, I like the Patrick G torquer cam for your application. 224/228 on LSK lobes. I think it's a 110 +4, but you'd have to look it up in the "torque coming out of my ears" thread. You'd have to upgrade your springs and pushrods, but that's a requirement for any worthwhile cam upgrade.
What I suggest is you deciding what you can tolerate to drive. Personally, I like the Patrick G torquer cam for your application. 224/228 on LSK lobes. I think it's a 110 +4, but you'd have to look it up in the "torque coming out of my ears" thread. You'd have to upgrade your springs and pushrods, but that's a requirement for any worthwhile cam upgrade.
I am liking the specs on the Patrick G torquer cam. Who makes prolly a stupid question there
Ok please can you school me on the different lobes. What makes an LSK lobe different from a XR, XR-E lobe??? so i a 110 LSA.. ok that would be a really rough idle, not a problem.. but why is it advanced 4*???? what does that benefit me?As for my upgrades:
LS6 oil pump, SVO 30# injectors, Comp 918s or 921s, Chromolly 7.4" pushrods, double roller LS2 timing chains. STOCK Lifter should be fine (2002 TA with 41K on th eclock) and i am not sure what to do with the retainers and valve seats..
EDIT: What is the lift of that cam??